Eccentric phase question for Glenn

[Terry Gibbs]

Glenn, was reading a very nice piece you did for T nation where you, apart from providing some excellent advice were pointing that your guys did very little eccentric work (squats ) in their programs. I OLed for several years back in the day when a 20kg Eleiko bumper cost more than most people earned in a week, and too much dropping got you kicked out. I understand how lowering near max jerks can be very draining, using energy that could be used more productivley.

Question is, I was watching a video of the US National throwers conf, from around 2006 where a presenter stated that the plyo effect of the catch in a power clean, was its most beneficial part (yes I know and yes his credentials supported that level of advice) but I had never actually thought too much about any plyo effect in a power clean before but the thought came up again when watching youtube videos of Primo Kozmus (2008 OG winner hammer)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0rn_pSRv_0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qIRu4U4G-s

in discussions with other throwers this is referred to as the Hungarian technique and it heavily loads the pulling muscles eccentrically (your soleus for instance)

This technique is widely applied by many top hammer throwers and others.

When you think about this I can see a specific application. A catch in hammer when the second foot comes down does involve subtantial loading in a manner not too disimilar, but I also wonder about the general plyo power development for athletes that this style provides.


any thoughts... on the general power effect of the plyo part...

[glennpendlay]

Originally Posted by Terry Gibbs

Glenn, was reading a very nice piece you did for T nation where you, apart from providing some excellent advice were pointing that your guys did very little eccentric work (squats ) in their programs. I OLed for several years back in the day when a 20kg Eleiko bumper cost more than most people earned in a week, and too much dropping got you kicked out. I understand how lowering near max jerks can be very draining, using energy that could be used more productivley.

Question is, I was watching a video of the US National throwers conf, from around 2006 where a presenter stated that the plyo effect of the catch in a power clean, was its most beneficial part (yes I know and yes his credentials supported that level of advice) but I had never actually thought too much about any plyo effect in a power clean before but the thought came up again when watching youtube videos of Primo Kozmus (2008 OG winner hammer)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0rn_pSRv_0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qIRu4U4G-s

in discussions with other throwers this is referred to as the Hungarian technique and it heavily loads the pulling muscles eccentrically (your soleus for instance)

This technique is widely applied by many top hammer throwers and others.

When you think about this I can see a specific application. A catch in hammer when the second foot comes down does involve subtantial loading in a manner not too disimilar, but I also wonder about the general plyo power development for athletes that this style provides.


any thoughts... on the general power effect of the plyo part...

Catching, or stopping and reversing the direction of a weight is a valuable part of the power clean for athletes, and one of the reasons its better than a pull.

And, catching a weight is not the same as a full eccentric rep, although it does have a small eccentric component.

After watching a few throwing videos with this in mind, yes, I can see how catching a weight might be even more important to a thrower than to a lifter, thus the possibility that emphasizing this more in training might be valuable. I am not a throwing coach, but given my observations would not argue with someone who pushed this style of training...

[Terry Gibbs]

thank you, comments appreciated ...

[glennpendlay]

Originally Posted by Terry Gibbs

thank you, comments appreciated ...

One more small observation. You might have recently seen the video of Jon North cleaning 200kg at a bodyweight of 94kg. Later in the workout he did a very, very hard front squat of 195kg, given the difficulty he almost assuredly would have missed a 200kg front squat that session had he tried it.

Jon is VERY skilled at catching a weight. He is able to control the catch perfectly, and utilize the stretch reflex and the dynamic properties of the bar to stand up seemingly easily with a weight that he might or might not be able to front squat immedietly afterwards, in fact he can stand with a weight that many lifters could not stand with even if they could front squat 20-30kilos more than him.

What I am getting at is that catching a weight, controlling it, and reversing directions is a skill, something you can get better at if you practice. If this skill is important to your particular sport, then by all means practice it. It is for the throwing coaches and athletes to decide if catching and reversing direction with a barbell will carry over to the throws, but, it seems to me that it would.

How well you can stop a movement and reverse direction is related to strength, but certainly not completely dependent on strength, as demonstrated by Jon North.

This is one of the reasons why a monster squat alone does not guarantee a long throw or a big clean and jerk. You MUST train specifically for the neuromuscular qualities that your sport demands.

I woujld hope that someone with more experience than I have in coaching throwers will jump in here.

glenn

[Terry Gibbs]

Glenn as I said before I really appreciate your insights from your experience.

I like your analogy. Young throwers often have coaches with little real lifting background or people who have such high natural levels of strength (people threw shot 60 foot and discus 200 before anyone really lifted) that they have grown up with some very strange lifting beliefs grounded simply by "well so and so won this or broke that so it works ". For many of these, Brian Oldfield may be a case, he could have thrown 75 foot lifting ping pong balls.

About two years ago I was doing some OL for the worlds masters (I was a thrower at the time ...and still am) and trained under Doc Mitchell at Burwood in Sydney. I had been doing most all my OL pulling from a very low hang (about 2 inches off the floor). My butt was very high at start of pull. Doc would get very exasperated at trying to get my hips down. Same year I was at our national throwing coaching Conf where I saw video of our national shot record holder (21.27) Scotty Martin power snatching - very low hang, inches off floor, with hips very high, back at about 90 degs to floor at start of pull. My thoughts were, "okay brute strong, bad technique ". Next year at the same conf I saw video of Dale Stevenson 20.05 shotputter, doing the same power snatch. They are both coached by Gus Populo. I asked Dale later whether that hip position was deliberate, he replied it was. I later saw film of Litvinov (86+m hammer thrower) doing an identical power snatch. This year I asked Dale and Scott's coach Gus Populo, about this and how it looked like he was trying to imitate a back angle more applicable for throwing than lifting with his power snatches.
Gus replied that was exactly the case (and very few people had ever commented). Gus also trained Benny Harradine rated no 9 in discus last year and second in Continental cup.

Long storey short, what you were referring to in your example is that specificty rules . Just cutting and pasting from someone else's program, who has different goals may not give optimin results.

It is no longer 1970.