Explode above knee or mid-thigh?

[PB Andy]

Pretty simple question, I've seen people start to accelerate the bar just above the knee, and I've seen others put the bar into position around mid-thigh and then explode with the hip extension and then knee extension (i.e. scoop/jump/whatever). A perfect example I think of someone who accelerates mid-thigh is here, Ilya Ilin, one of my fav lifters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXkPWgIof3E

Also it seems that Chigishev 'explodes' with the hips at about mid-thigh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7L6OEIVsNc

[glennpendlay]

Originally Posted by PB Andy

Pretty simple question, I've seen people start to accelerate the bar just above the knee, and I've seen others put the bar into position around mid-thigh and then explode with the hip extension and then knee extension (i.e. scoop/jump/whatever). A perfect example I think of someone who accelerates mid-thigh is here, Ilya Ilin, one of my fav lifters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXkPWgIof3E

Also it seems that Chigishev 'explodes' with the hips at about mid-thigh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7L6OEIVsNc

I assume you are talking about the snatch, cause the Chigishev vid is only snatch. Quality lifters like that are accellerating all the way from the floor, but they dont "explode" or execute the second pull till the bar is at the hip...

[PB Andy]

Originally Posted by glennpendlay

I assume you are talking about the snatch, cause the Chigishev vid is only snatch. Quality lifters like that are accellerating all the way from the floor, but they dont "explode" or execute the second pull till the bar is at the hip...

I guess it could apply to both snatch and clean, as seen in the Ilya Ilin video.

I understand what you mean when they 'explode' from the hips, but it seems after a controlled first pull, they accelerate it even further at around mid-thigh, instead of accelerating it from above knee.

btw will you be answering any more questions over at T-nation?

[Manuel B]

Originally Posted by PB Andy

I guess it could apply to both snatch and clean, as seen in the Ilya Ilin video.

I understand what you mean when they 'explode' from the hips, but it seems after a controlled first pull, they accelerate it even further at around mid-thigh, instead of accelerating it from above knee.

btw will you be answering any more questions over at T-nation?

The 'first pull' is below the knee so why would they 'control' the pull any higher than that? And when youre moving 200kg in either lift, I doubt the lift feels 'controlled' but rather accelerating from the floor and increasing acceleration as you get into a position of better leverage.

[PB Andy]

Originally Posted by Manuel B

The 'first pull' is below the knee so why would they 'control' the pull any higher than that? And when youre moving 200kg in either lift, I doubt the lift feels 'controlled' but rather accelerating from the floor and increasing acceleration as you get into a position of better leverage.

to your first point, isn't that what Ilya Ilin is doing?

your second point, it's really just semantics. less acceleration on the first pull, controlled first pull, whatever you want to call it.

[Manuel B]

Originally Posted by PB Andy

to your first point, isn't that what Ilya Ilin is doing?

Not by looking at it, Im sure a velocity/acceleration graph would confirm it.

your second point, it's really just semantics. less acceleration on the first pull, controlled first pull, whatever you want to call it.

Not really, I dont think theyre intentionally lifting slow/control or keeping acceleration constant during the first pull but rather pulling it from the floor and accelerate as the bar goes higher.

Ive seen some of Garhammer's work where different lifters accelerate by different amounts as the lift progresses but the point is as Glenn said: accelerate from the floor and keep accelerating until you reach the explosion point at the hips. Where a lifter will exhibit a certain amount of acceleration depends on their build and other factors, but that doesnt change the story nor the need to get the bar to your hips before exploding.

[PB Andy]

Originally Posted by Manuel B

Not by looking at it, Im sure a velocity/acceleration graph would confirm it.



Not really, I dont think theyre intentionally lifting slow/control or keeping acceleration constant during the first pull but rather pulling it from the floor and accelerate as the bar goes higher.

Ive seen some of Garhammer's work where different lifters accelerate by different amounts as the lift progresses but the point is as Glenn said: accelerate from the floor and keep accelerating until you reach the explosion point at the hips. Where a lifter will exhibit a certain amount of acceleration depends on their build and other factors, but that doesnt change the story nor the need to get the bar to your hips before exploding.

OK I see what you are saying.

I guess a better question would be... when does that forceful hip extension come into play? In Glenn's snatch progression vids it seems that the forceful hips come into play above the knee, while in Ilya Ilin's vids he seems to have that forceful hip extension at about mid-thigh.

[COACHMCCAULEY]

Originally Posted by Manuel B

The 'first pull' is below the knee so why would they 'control' the pull any higher than that? And when youre moving 200kg in either lift, I doubt the lift feels 'controlled' but rather accelerating from the floor and increasing acceleration as you get into a position of better leverage.

Manuel B,

I don't know where this definition of the 1st pull being "below the knee" comes from, but it is simply WRONG.
The 1st pull is the portion of the drive from the floor to the point at which the 2nd pull is initiated, which should be as close to the hips as possible(at the pubic bone for the snatch). (I will say here that some coaches consider the initiation of the movement into the scoop as the beginning of the 2nd pull but I consider that it is simply the setup at the end of the 1st pull for the
2nd.)

Lifters that start the acceleration down near the knees are simply pulling wrong. The bar is invariably too far to the front and will, most of the time end up too far forward at the catch. Many lifters in this country who have been taught that the lift is a "jump" pull in this manner. It's inefficient to say the least.

CoachMc

[Manuel B]

Originally Posted by COACHMCCAULEY

Manuel B,

I don't know where this definition of the 1st pull being "below the knee" comes from, but it is simply WRONG.
The 1st pull is the portion of the drive from the floor to the point at which the 2nd pull is initiated, which should be as close to the hips as possible(at the pubic bone for the snatch). (I will say here that some coaches consider the initiation of the movement into the scoop as the beginning of the 2nd pull but I consider that it is simply the setup at the end of the 1st pull for the
2nd.)

Lifters that start the acceleration down near the knees are simply pulling wrong. The bar is invariably too far to the front and will, most of the time end up too far forward at the catch. Many lifters in this country who have been taught that the lift is a "jump" pull in this manner. It's inefficient to say the least.

CoachMc

The first pull does start from the floor (which is below the knee), Im not sure where the disagreement is. I dont disagree with the rest of what you said but you have to accelerate the bar from the floor and this acceleration may be interrupted during the transition point around the knees (double knee bend) before increasing again during the 2nd pull.

[COACHMCCAULEY]

Manuel,

I misread and thought you were saying that it was defined as the poertion from the floor to the knee, which I have heard before. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As far as the acceleration, how much you do or don't accelerate from the floor can have to do with the distance to the hips of the lifter. I always tell my lifters that like a throw(discus, shot), the lift goes from slower to faster. I believe the lifter must always think he is increasing his speed throughout, even though we know there is a loss of acceleration at the dkb.

CoachMc