Push Press

[0ni]

I've switched to push press from press for strength training following Glenn's advice in some article somewhere lol

I noticed that a lot of his athletes do their push presses from behind the neck. Really all I am asking is which version of the push press will have the most carry over to other pressing (especially bench press)

Cheers

[Mike F]

Front would have more carry over to the bench press.

[CharisLouca]

what will have more carryover to life in general, or more importantly overhead strength, BTN or front?

[0ni]

Front would have more carry over to the bench press.

Thanks. What are the reasons for this? I'm a bit of a geek and like to understand what I am doing and why :P

[glennpendlay]

I've switched to push press from press for strength training following Glenn's advice in some article somewhere lol

I noticed that a lot of his athletes do their push presses from behind the neck. Really all I am asking is which version of the push press will have the most carry over to other pressing (especially bench press)

Cheers

Honestly I would be of the opinion that there would not be a lot of difference from the front or behind the neck when it comes to carryover.

[0ni]

Honestly I would be of the opinion that there would not be a lot of difference from the front or behind the neck when it comes to carryover.

Thanks loads, I'll use the variation that allows me to lift the most weight

[glennpendlay]

Thanks loads, I'll use the variation that allows me to lift the most weight

yes. yes, and yes.

[PFerrari]

I've read that PP behind the neck can be tough on shoulders so proceed with caution. Behind the neck jerk is different because the shoulders shouldn't become active until the bar is further over your head, but with the PP the shoulders do more of the work.

[azolylifter]

I've read that PP behind the neck can be tough on shoulders so proceed with caution. Behind the neck jerk is different because the shoulders shouldn't become active until the bar is further over your head, but with the PP the shoulders do more of the work.

PP is the same first movement as the jerk, as you are driving the bar up using your hips and legs. You only finish the movement with your arms and shoulders, so doing either jerk or PP behind the neck would NOT place any strain on your shoulders or rotator cuffs if done correctly.

[Mike F]

Thanks. What are the reasons for this? I'm a bit of a geek and like to understand what I am doing and why :P

Hi, first off I should say I don't think their has been any study done on this so everyone is saying there own opinion/experiance. But if you think about it, what is taxed alot in the BP? The Front deltoids, which IMO will be worked more efficiently doing PP as opposed to BTN PP. When you BP which looks more similar a standing press from the front or back? The front looks more similar. Lastly, which is a proven safer exercise PP or BTN PP......PP!!! Considering these points for max carry-over to bench perform from the front. Don't take it from me simply look at guys like Wendler/Rippetoe ect. good powerlifters who advocate frontal pressing motions in their powerlifting routines, not BTN!

I agree with the point made about load, many say the BTN you can do more weight, but for most that might be 5kg more(big whoop, actually I front several kilo's heavier) second this is an assistance exercise, would you perform dumbell fly's with 100kg dumbells and blow a pec muscle, probably not because the hard work must be put in the classical lifts pertaining to your sport.

With that said, I do both BTN PP and PP but I'm an average o-lifter looking to improve my overhead ability which is my weak link. Maybe you can rotate both exercises and it might work for you. I used to powerlift, didn't do any huge numbers but I will say I found the NUMBER 1 assistance exercise that upped my bench was the "press" as Ripp calls it or the standing military press. More and more PL's are realizing the advantages of frontal press/push press work to improve their bench. It was to the point where, if my Press went up, then my bench went up with it.

Hope this helps, not trying to strong arm any good advice or any opinion(just an average dude with an opinion), but I'm certain quality PL's understood the frontal press's had more carry over hence why they promote it. Good luck, and again I love the BTN PP just to clarify however its probably better deployed for strongman competitiors and olympic lifters then PL's.

[61pwcc]

two legends of Powerlifting advocated the PBN NOT the Front Press. First competition 700lb Bench Presser Ted Arcidi and Powerlifting deity Ed Coan both swore by PBN. Remember, Ed hit a 2 1/2 x bwt in the 220lb class in a t-shirt.
The PBN is MUCH more of a Front Delt worker. You can use some upper Pecs to help start. Once you blast the bar up, you can swing your arms out and poke your head through once the bar clears the height of your head. In other words the Front Press is a compound movement.
The PBN requires a tremendous amount of work to be done by the front Delt. No help/minimal help from upper pecs and arms are already out to sides. Whether you Push press them or not, the Behind Neck version puts more of the stress on the front Delts. Check out Klokov with these PBN:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLPxwuGUZBY
No help from upper Pecs or swinging arms out.

[Mike F]

two legends of Powerlifting advocated the PBN NOT the Front Press. First competition 700lb Bench Presser Ted Arcidi and Powerlifting deity Ed Coan both swore by PBN. Remember, Ed hit a 2 1/2 x bwt in the 220lb class in a t-shirt.
The PBN is MUCH more of a Front Delt worker. You can use some upper Pecs to help start. Once you blast the bar up, you can swing your arms out and poke your head through once the bar clears the height of your head. In other words the Front Press is a compound movement.
The PBN requires a tremendous amount of work to be done by the front Delt. No help/minimal help from upper pecs and arms are already out to sides. Whether you Push press them or not, the Behind Neck version puts more of the stress on the front Delts. Check out Klokov with these PBN:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLPxwuGUZBY
No help from upper Pecs or swinging arms out.

Hi, great info! I'm a huge Ed Coan fan and I wasn't aware of that. I will say I could line up a thousand elite level powerlifters who will advocate PP from the front, so not sure your post proves anything scientifically. Dorian Yates performed the Yates Row, yet in hindsight said he would have never done that if he could go back and do it all again. Now I see guys doing that and thinking they'll be Dorian Yates.

I'm well aware of the Klokov vid's thanks for posting though, his picture is my current desktop lol, soon as any vid's come out I'm racing to thumbs up! Him doing BTN Press means nothing to me, or a guy trying to up his bench(Klokov is an O-lifter) Klokov is a wonder of the world, sadly most lifters can't bench and do the exercises he does because it will hurt their flexability in the olympic lifts plus, no offense to Klokov but IMO bench serves no purpose for O-lifting. My guess is due to his shoulder injury(several years ago) he does so much press work for shoulder/rotator strength. Plus Russians are strength nuts who attempt to be all around strong in everything. I can show you 1,000 lifters who have won medals in olympic lifting and don't bench, don't press, or don't push press in fact there's no doubt been medalists in the olympics who couldn't strict press 100kg yet won gold. Chigeshev benched 240kg do you think thats why he won silver at beijing, personally I don't. Mattius Schnieder to my knowledge doesn't bench yet he won gold, the point is bench and strict pressing has **** all to do with O-lifting, so the Klokov reference means jack to me no offense intended at all but we know nobody can prove russian press methods attributed all to their success. IMO its their constant practice of doing the lifts over and over, combined with nutrition, excellent coaching, sleep patterns, strong minds, public pressure ect.

I believe do the lifts most specific to your sport, IMO PP looks way more like a bench then a BTN PP ever would. Using a broomstick at my house, your right it does appear like the BTN PP works the front delts more so I stand corrected. Your quote that PP is "compound exercise" is that not the logic of PL though? Thats what the DL, BP, and Squat is about compound movements which engage most muscle groups when performed correctly. Considering the risk of BTN PP and the fact PL is already high risk injuries at stake would the PP make more sense. I know with the help of the Press, my bench went up alot! Maybe the BTN PP would have made it go up further, who knows? No conclusive study was performed on the correlation, and I know of many elite PL's who do front and not BTN, then again there's alot of PL who don't do any overhead and yet they set records. Ed Coan and Ted doing BTN doesn't prove it upped their bench, keep in mind it was said Ed Coan did 525lbs in the Pendlay Row for 2 reps, perhaps that attributed to the BP success we may never know.

Truth is I like both PP and BTN PP, they help with my confidence and jerk strength. So I like both, I'm still leaning towards PP is better for a BP/PL athlete. Your points really showed me I was naive towards how much front deltoid work is being performed with BTN PP, so perhaps both should be incorporated into 0ni's plan. It would be nice to see a study done on this, the correlation of overhead strength to the bench press from all angles. Thanks again for the info, all the best.

[61pwcc]

"Him doing BTN Press means nothing to me" Well, the clip was just to show the lack of upper Pecs and arm swing, nothing else. What's going to help your or my Bench Press, is fixing our respective weaknesses. If the weakness is Front Delt then it makes sense to strengthen it with an exercise that puts specific stress on that muscle. Hence my compound statement about Front Presses. Chances are a highly technical exercise is not the choice for strengthening a muscle. A less technical/more isolating exercise usually is the better choice.
"Your quote that PP is "compound exercise" is that not the logic of PL though?" Not for me. As a Weightlifter, Powerlifter, Strongman and All-Round Weightlifter I do compound and isolation exercises to improve my lifts. If my weakness is a technical error I'll do other SIMILAR movements. If my weakness is muscular, I'll hit isolation movements. If my issues are flexibility/alignment issues I do exercises for those as well.
Do you have to overhead Press(Front or Back) to be a God at Weightlifting or Powerlifting? No, but wouldn't it help? How could it not?

[Mike F]

I agree that you should always focus on weak links albeit in the BP or classical olympic and powerlifts. I think the answers to your questions at the end of your post is.....depends. Bulgarians didn't need to do any overhead work, they jerked but didn't press. Then again the Chinese and Russians see the value in it. My thinking is one needs to be very carefull when using these lifts because if your an average joe and not on steroids(like the Russians & Chinese) recovery is longer. Thats the falacy with those training videos of the Klokovs and the Chigeshevs ect. it would be nice in your home gym to bench, press, BTN press then clean deadlift...then do the classical lifts+squats lol all in 1 day but lets be honest most of us natural lifters who work have to be very carefull with their exercise selection so they get the most bang for the buck. Hence why were debating which has the best carry over BTN or PP because one must maximize progress in the shortest period of time to be a great lifter.

[0ni]

Hi, first off I should say I don't think their has been any study done on this so everyone is saying there own opinion/experiance. But if you think about it, what is taxed alot in the BP? The Front deltoids, which IMO will be worked more efficiently doing PP as opposed to BTN PP. When you BP which looks more similar a standing press from the front or back? The front looks more similar. Lastly, which is a proven safer exercise PP or BTN PP......PP!!! Considering these points for max carry-over to bench perform from the front. Don't take it from me simply look at guys like Wendler/Rippetoe ect. good powerlifters who advocate frontal pressing motions in their powerlifting routines, not BTN!

I agree with the point made about load, many say the BTN you can do more weight, but for most that might be 5kg more(big whoop, actually I front several kilo's heavier) second this is an assistance exercise, would you perform dumbell fly's with 100kg dumbells and blow a pec muscle, probably not because the hard work must be put in the classical lifts pertaining to your sport.

With that said, I do both BTN PP and PP but I'm an average o-lifter looking to improve my overhead ability which is my weak link. Maybe you can rotate both exercises and it might work for you. I used to powerlift, didn't do any huge numbers but I will say I found the NUMBER 1 assistance exercise that upped my bench was the "press" as Ripp calls it or the standing military press. More and more PL's are realizing the advantages of frontal press/push press work to improve their bench. It was to the point where, if my Press went up, then my bench went up with it.

Hope this helps, not trying to strong arm any good advice or any opinion(just an average dude with an opinion), but I'm certain quality PL's understood the frontal press's had more carry over hence why they promote it. Good luck, and again I love the BTN PP just to clarify however its probably better deployed for strongman competitiors and olympic lifters then PL's.

Thanks, just one question though - wouldn't push press from btn work the front deltoids more due to the high amount of external rotation that the shoulders are in? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick

[0ni]

Also what if I don't have any weaknesses, I am just weak all over and like doing overhead work to strengthen delts & triceps in a heavy way

That's sort of why I was looking for best carry over, I'll follow Glenn's advice and do regular push press for now as I am stronger like that but I'll also rotate in some BTN work as I suspect that I just don't have the movement trained very well.

Thanks for the intelligent discussion, beats most other boards lol

[61pwcc]

is to warm up w/PP BN then go into PP to the front to call in more mechanical help. Similar to warming up with a wide grip bench then going to a medium grip to use more lats. I also find Turkish Get-Ups a good shoulder warm-up.
This is me hitting a 130lb Turkish Get-Up:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlpqXpVRwsE&context=C32fbd1eADOEgsToPDskI9CoKWra99-xj_j6epOBZT

[0ni]

is to warm up w/PP BN then go into PP to the front to call in more mechanical help. Similar to warming up with a wide grip bench then going to a medium grip to use more lats. I also find Turkish Get-Ups a good shoulder warm-up.
This is me hitting a 130lb Turkish Get-Up:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlpqXpVRwsE&context=C32fbd1eADOEgsToPDskI9CoKWra99-xj_j6epOBZT

interdasting, I shall give that a go

[0ni]

We are not talking about btn jerk

[oldgit]

999999 out of a million i listen and follow glenns advice-he is an expert and offers incredible training insight-however,although i am not anywhere near being a decent weightlifter,i have found time and time again that for me personally-strict military press combined with jerks works better than when i do push presses-these seem to then make me slower for my jerks,whereas i punch my military presses up as fast as poss using compensatory acceleration style. could just be me!

[0ni]

ok it's like 8 weeks later now and my push press before was 60kg and from behind the neck it was 55kg due to me not having the groove

I've been push pressing from behind the neck 4x a week and when I got the groove sorted I started doing a max 4x a week. I've hit 70kg on two occasions now for PPBTN! 15kg increase in 8 weeks!! I am 65kg bodyweight @ 5'10 also so very pleased with this result!

Th-thanks!

[IB138]

Most of the Strongman competitors out of Iron Sport Gym in PA do the PPBN cuz it allows them to do more weight.