Programming question for Master lifter

[texaslifter]

Hi all, I'm new to the forum. I'm a 36 yr old (will turn 37 this June), 77/85 kg lifter. I have been lifting for about 9 years, but have really struggled the last couple of years to make decent gains. I recently (last July) worked with Glenn on my start position, and it has paid off, but my maxes have not seen the pay-off yet. My situation makes it hard to find quality training time, and I have a tendancy to do too much, so as to not make progress. I currently work full-time, attend law school part time (11 hours this semester), so have little time to plan my workouts. My main weaknesses are third pull and general overall strength. I was hoping someone could help me with a general program (keeping in mind my somewhat limited recovery ability). My schedule is: Mon - Wed - work to about 4:15, then school at 6 (have about 30-40 min I can workout at LA Fitness on the way), Thurs - no restraint after work then class at 8, Fri - Sun - no restraints.

I would really appreciate any and all help. Thanks,

[glennpendlay]

Can you train on 3 non-consecutive days per week? I know i have given you my programming advice before, but id be happy to give it to you again...

Glenn

[texaslifter]

You have given me that before, but this semester I can't train the oly lifts on 3 non-consecutive days. The only days I can train the lifts are Thur-Sun. That is why I came on here asking for advice. I really appreciate it, and the lower hip starting position is really working much better for me.

[glennpendlay]

In your situation, I would train the lifts on the two days that you can... and spend the other two days a week you are in the gym without being able to do the lifts doing your squats and assistance work.

My assumption based on what you have posted so far is that you can be in the gym 4 days a week, but can only do the lifts on Thursday and Sunday... If I am not correct on this, please correct me.

Glenn

[texaslifter]

Close, I can train the lifts Thurs, Fri, Sat and Sun. Mon, Tues and Wed I have access to a LA Fitness for about 35 min max between work and when class starts. I don't have a problem doing the lifts 3-4 of those days, I just won't have a day off in between. I was planning a squat day Tues, but that is about all I can handle. Thanks for the time Glenn.

[glennpendlay]

I think something that might work well for you would be a 4 day a week schedule, using the 20/20 program that we have talked about before for the lifts on maybe Thur and Sun, and doing your strength work on Friday and Monday...

This isnt how I would train a 20 year old firebreather... but you are 36 and have a very busy schedule with school and work... taking that into consideration, more than this probably isnt going to help...

glenn

[texaslifter]

Thanks, Glenn. I have been thinking of something along the same lines. Just wanted some other's thoughts.

[glennpendlay]

9 times our of 10, older lifters do too much, IMO. Especially older lifters with demanding jobs...

[texaslifter]

I'm very guilty of that!!! :o

[GSTACK]

Glen sorry to jump in on Texaslifters thread , but I just have a couple of general questions on masters lifting programming .
Do you recommend in general to do the lifts and squats on seperate days for masters or only if they cant train on non consecutive days ?

I have just turned 35 and try to train Sun-mon-weds-fri alternating snatch /power clean/jerk behind the neck/backsquat and c+j/powersnatch/press/frontsquat along with some shoulder prehab and abs/back extensions/rev hypers and stretching.

I am starting to think this is too much and something like a 20/20 with whatever weight I can consistently lift with good form and a squat variation would be better.

Anyways just interested in your general guidelines for masters I suppose.

Garrett

[glennpendlay]

GSTACK,

I have seen two different programs work well for masters lifters. One, which is really what I prefer if scheduling is not an issue, is a very simply 3 day a week program. Each day would include some snatching, some clean and jerking, and an assistance exercise. How much snatching and clean and jerking would depend on recovery ability, 20/20 might be appropriate for some, but on the other hand, the best masters lifter I ever coached, Mary McGregor (world champion, world record holder, best lifter for her age group at masters worlds, and a 44kg snatch and 63kg clean and jerk at 61 years old with WONDERFUL form and technique) did best by alternating only 4 or 5 singles with 3 doubles... any more would have been too much for her. The assistance exercise would be squatting at least once a week, and could be other things that needed work once or twice a week. When Mary got her back squat over 100kg, we cut way down on the squatting, and didnt squat at all leading up to her best performances. She also did a couple of other workouts at a different gym every week, more of a conditioning type of workout, that also had some general strength work using dumbells, machines, and even Kettlebells...

Another successful program is one that Diran Lancaster used do to due to scheduling problems. He came in and snatched and clean and jerked with the team as his schedule permitted, which was sometimes one evening per week, sometimes two or three. One or two would have been the most common. He worked hard on the snatch and the clean and jerk only in those sessions, then used his lunch break at work on other days to go into a regular gym and do various strength work a couple of times a week.

This worked well enough for Diran that he was able to get his clean up to 140kg while over 40 years of age, actually equaling what he did as a 20 year old athlete playing football for Texas Tech.

I dont think there is any right or wrong way for masters lifters to approach OL, but you have recovery and scheduling considerations that most 20 years olds just dont have. You HAVE to fit lifting into your life, not try to fit your life to lifting. If you try to do the program that an up and coming 18 year old is doing and somehow shoehorn it into your schedule, you will end up crashing and burniing.

glenn

[GSTACK]

Glenn
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I am definitely having up and down days recovery wise , on a good day I feel 19 on a bad day 60 !
I am thinking that I will try just snatching and clean and jerking only on 1 day a week and maybe cutting back to 3 days a week instead of 4 or just some stretching and abs/hypers on one of the days.

Garrett

[texaslifter]

Okay, last night I did my first 20/20 workout in a long time going from about 60% to about 80%. The weight wasn't much of a problem, I just got really tired. Missed snatch 20/21 :mad: (tried it again about 82%), but got all CJ, but barely. Cleans weren't a problem, but the jerks were getting a bit slow and tired on the last couple. I'll repeat Sunday, then start moving the weight up bit by bit. I forgot how tough this program is!!!:rolleyes:

[glennpendlay]

Its fairly deceptive. You have to be in pretty good shape to do it with weights in the 85% range, and 85 to 90% is probably where it is most effective.

20 snatches in 20 minutes with 85% followed by 20 clean and jerks in 20 minutes with 85%... is a killer.

Once upon a time back when I was strong, I did 20 snatches in 20 minutes with 140kg. At the time this was about 85% of my max. I felt so sick by rep 13 or 14 that i brought a trash can over to the side of the platform just in case. Dont think I ever actually threw up, but I was close. Not sure how much of this was me being out of shape and how much of it was the workout being hard. But I was doing squats with bands and chains at the time, 10 doubles, at a one set per minute pace where the weight at the bottom was about 450-500lbs and the weight at the top was over 700, and moving them all fast right up to the last set, so I couldnt have been THAT out of shape...

Of course, several years later Donny Shankle beat that, by doing 142.5kg for 20 singles in 20 minutes, he was looking a bit pale by the end also.

Maybe the most amazing performance on this type of workout that I have seen was Justin Brimhall, who did 125kg for 20 singles in about 22 minutes... at a bodyweight of around 73kg and with a snatch max of 131kg. He was 16 at the time I think, might have just turned 17 but I dont think so.. Whatever you want to say about Justin, he was in tremendous shape. The really crazy thing about Brimhall is that he would do things like this, then clean and jerk, then squat heavy... then be able to come back to the gym in 3-4 hours and basically repeat the exact same performance... then be totally ready to repeat it all again the next day. He was exceptional in many ways...

Glenn

[texaslifter]

Yeah, I know what you mean about deceptive. I'm doing the original Mills 20/20, but will progress to the one you told me about (20 reps on the minute with a weight across). My lower back has been strained, and squatting has made it worse the last couple of workouts. I will be getting back into it tomorrow. I think I'm going to start a workout log here as I don't get any feedback on my other one.

[leighton]

Some good info for me here.
I'm 34 year old and my lifting has stagnated a lot in the last year.
My recovery is probably affected even more by the fact that I train Judo twice per week, and the judo is really quite tough on the "Pulling" muscles.
Plus I work full time, married with 3 little girls :)
I have tried doing the 20/20 type workouts before, but I find that after 20 snatches and 20 clean and jerks I have no energy/time left for squats.
I also need to keep my workouts short, I train at home after work in my garage.

So how about something like this for me
Sunday
Snatch 20 singles
Front squats triples

Monday
clean 10 singles
jerk 10 singles

Wednesday
Snatch 5 triples
Clean Grip OH Squat 5 triples

Thursday
Clean 5 doubles
Jerk 5 doubles

Friday
Snatch
10 doubles
Back Squat 5 * 5

:)
thanks
Leighton

[glennpendlay]

Leighton,

That doesnt seem like a bad program, but something else you could try is to just cut it down to say 10 snatches and 10 clean and jerks... and no reason you cant do your squatting on a different day if you want to... not at all unusual to have no energy left for squatting after that type of workout.

glenn

[SMarcella]

The basics:
6'2", 240lb (probably between 15 and 17%BF, 39yrs old

Injuries/Issues
-Banged up wrist from missed clean last year, which still gives me some trouble
- Lack of thoracic mobility (assuming this is the problem). The rack is not a problem when Front Squatting and Cleaning. The problem is the recovery and repositioning for the jerk. I can't rest the bar on my shoulders....resting mostly in my hands when getting ready to jerk. Currently rolling and stretching and some other mobility drills to help.


The Problems:

* Since dropping to 240 from 260 I seemed to have lost a considerable amount of strength. BS went from 375 x 5 x 5 to 315 x 5 x 5, DL and strict press dropped considerably as well.
* Snatch: Stuck in the in the 90 to 95 kilo range
* CJ: last year when I hurt my wrist, I was C&J 125kilo. The current problem with the clean is more fear related with respect to not getting my elbows around fast enough. This really becomes an issue if I snatch before I clean.

I was following the CA workouts but it seems recovery is an issue due to not always eating or sleeping enough...maybe my age is catching me as well. Other than technique problems I am wondering if I should just follow the basic or masters routine outlined in Greg's book? I have been doing the following with linear progression (try to add 5 to 10 lbs/workout on squat, DL, presses) on the strength lifts and and 2-3% on the classic lifts:

Monday: BS 5x5, Press 5x5, CLDL 3x5 or 5x5 (depending how my lowerback feels)

Tuesday: Rest

Wednesday: Snatch and CJ: either work up to heavy single and back of to 80-85%x2x5 or 70-80%x2x10

Thursday: FS 5x5, Snatch PP 5x5, SnDL 3x5 or 5x5 (depending if lowerback is smoked)

Friday: Rest

Saturday: Snatch, CJ, OHS (resp and sets vary depending on how I feel after the week)

The days are not always consistent due to work, therefore, I treat it as day 1, 2, 3, etc and just follow the pattern not worrying about which day it is.

My goals for the year are to do the following:
Snatch 110kilo (currently 95kilo)
CJ 145kilo (currently 120-125kilo)
Compete in my first masters meet

Questions:
I am not sure if I am not pulling myself under the bar fast enough and or accelerating enough on the 2nd pull. Video links:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Olylifter71#p/u/4/Uq-OyE5ksuk

http://www.youtube.com/user/Olylifter71#p/u/3/mV9mvik3qa4

http://www.youtube.com/user/Olylifter71#p/u/2/7Rdh_tsKz3o

http://www.youtube.com/user/Olylifter71#p/u/1/d5p3rHkAbNc

http://www.youtube.com/user/Olylifter71#p/u/0/XHo4FA3bR8E


Unfortunately, I had one video of me cleaning. The others are all snatches. BS is probably near 400lbs, clean deadlift is probably around 450-475lbs (no wraps and not using mixed grip), strict press has become pathetic(due to shoulder injury) at probably 195 - 205lbs. Note, after removing high rep kipping pull-ups from workouts, shoulders have been feeling a lot better.

1. any suggestions for following a particular program (more classic lift vs. 50/50 classic and strength).
2. Mobility issues with wrist, shoulders and rack position? Most searches online are not geared towards olylifting or movements I am already incorporating.
3. Any other suggestions or comments? Unfortunately, I don't have a coach within 3 hrs of me that I can meet with regularly and there are no local affiliates that are truly good with the oly lifts...although they think they are.

[leighton]

Hi Glen
How about something like this then
Sunday(80 - 85%)
Snatch 5 triples
C&J 5 doubles

Monday
Back Squat - fives

Wednesday (75 - 80%)
Snatch 3 medium triples
C&J 3 medium doubles
Overhead Squat triples

Thursday
Front Squat triples

Friday (85 - 90%)
Snatch - five doubles
Clean & Jerk five singles

Bearing in mind I turn 34 next month and the judo training which is Tuesdays and Saturdays is going to wreck my recovery. Do you think this still might be too much? In the past I have just trained heavy and often until everything aches, then taken a recovery week. Although as I say my lifts have stagnated for over a year so I must be doing something wrong :(

Sorry for breaking in on Texas lifters thread :)
If you think I should have posted this in a new thread please tell me.

[SMarcella]

My apologies for breaking into this thread as well.

[glennpendlay]

SMarcella,

Just to be brutally honest, I think you are doing way to much for a 39 year old guy, and not doing near a high enough proportion of your training on the competitive lifts.

Its always hard to "coach" over the internet, because no matter what you write, myself or anyone else really has a very incomplete picture vs if we were able to watch you in the gym for a week. But based on your description of your training, and how your lifts look on the videos, I would cut a LOT of the volume of strength work out, and add in more lifts... I think you would benefit from putting a clock on your lifts and doing at least one or maybe even two workouts a week where you do the lifts on the minute... how many depends on your but i dont think 10 snatches in 10 minutes then 10 clean and jerks in 10 minutes would be a bad place to start.

Glenn

[SMarcella]

Thanks Glenn…. I really did not want to hear that I am old, thanks.
I recently tried the 20/20 with about 80% of my 1RM on the snatch and to be honest, I loved it. Sets 4 and 5 are where I missed, but sets 6 thru 18 I seemed to get more fluid and faster, and 19 and 20 fatigue started to setting.

• As far as how my lifts look on video, can you provide a little feedback on the mistakes that I am making / what I can do differently? I apologize for the poor video quality.

• You suggested that I cut out a lot of the volume on the strength work, therefore, do you feel it would be beneficial for me to follow 10 sets of 10 in 10 minutes with one strength lift (e.g. 85% x 3 x 3 on a squat, Deadlift, and press variation) or just do the 10 for 10 with the lifts and the next day do less volume with strength work but at a higher intensity?

• What % should one work with when doing timed sets for 10 or 20 minutes?


Thanks again for the input…it’s greatly appreciated.

Stephan

[glennpendlay]

Stephan,

I'm not calling you old, in fact we are the same age! But it has been my experience that most people reach a point somewhere in their late 20's or early 30's when the volume of training that they can handle just decreases. I can tell you that I really felt that start to happen when i was in the 32 or 33 year old range.

Your snatch and clean dont look BAD... not like there is a specific thing I would point to and say there, do that differently and you will fix it... what they look like is that in general, you are not good enough at the lifts to utilize the strength that you already have. Like more practice and confidence in the lifts will probably do you more good than a bigger press or deadlifts. That jerk is another story, but I would like to see you do more than just one powerjerk before I really give you a lot of advice on it, sometimes one lift is not representative of your lifting overall, and I dont want to give you a bunch of worthless advice.

As far as 10 singles on snatch or clean and jerk, you want the weight to be the weight that forces you into the best form and quickest movement, and this will take some adjusting on your part, but 80% is a good place to start.

As far as the workouts, I would always start low and adjust upwards if possible, rather than start higher and adjust down if needed. I would think about something like this

Mon

snatch 10 singles
clean and jerk for 10 singles
Back squat for 2 sets of 5

Wed

snatch up to a heavy single, then back off for a double
clean and jerk up to a heavy single, then back off for a double
clean pulls 3 sets of 3
whatever military press you want to do

Fri
snatch 10 singles
clean and jerk 10 singles
front squat 3 sets of 3

See how something like this feels, if it ends up that you can do much more, then great. One other thing... its not just "getting old". Its also a job, bills, stress,kids, marriage, etc. Most people at 39, me included, just cannot live a lifestyle that is ideal for maximizing their recovery, and because of this cant benefit from the same amount of training that say, a 24 year old Jon North can when his full time job is to train. I mean, you can still do it, I dont doubt that, but recoverying from it and benefitting from it are two other matters entirely.

Glenn

[SMarcella]

Glenn,

Your input is greatly appreciated. I was just joking about the age thing....just turned 39 and started realizing, "oh S***, I am getting up there and not 25 anymore. I still feel 25, but as you stated, my body is starting to feel the wear and tear. I will change the programming up to what you listed and start a log on the forum.

My primary goal is to get better at the lifts and compete some time this year. My secondary goal is to not lose too much GPP. What do you think of adding some bodyweight skill work on the off days with short (< 10minute) GPP sessions.

Again, thank you....have a good weekend.

Stephan

[glennpendlay]

Stephan,

Try it as listed for a week or two. Id prefer two, but you may get ancy, lol. Then add in one GPP session a week. do that for say two weeks, try to notice if you feel any less recovered overall. If not, try two sessions. Just take it slow.

On a related note, I have noticed over the years that you can do a lot more concentric only GPP (slep pulls and pushes, for instance) without it affecting your OL training than you can do with most other kinds. Things like sled pulls almost seem to BENEFIT recovery if done for a reasonable volume and intensity. One other GPP exercise that I have found to be of BENEFIT for recovery for many is GS style Kettlebell work. You might try a couple of things like this instead of whatever else you might be doing if you have trouble doing enough to keep yourself in the kind of overall shape you want to and still recover.

And one last thing, dont underestimate the GPP effect of the lifts done on a clock. They might not feel that hard at first, but once you have the weight adjusted up to the right level, and maybe even go from 10 to 20 reps of each lift, its a killer. Myself and Donny Shankle have done 140kg and 142.5kg respectively for 20 reps in 20 minutes on the snatch, and I think we both saw Jesus by the end. I had the puke bucket waiting at the edge of the platform, although I didnt use it. Caleb Ward did 160kg for 20 singles in 20 mnutes on the clean and jerk, his max at the time was I think 185kg. You have to be in damn good physical condition to do that. We had a heart rate moniter on a lifter who did 100kg for 20 singles in about 18 minutes, back in around 2001-2002. His max was 110kg. by the 5th or 6th minute his pulse was over 160, by the second 10 minutes I believe I remember that it stayed in the 165 to 195 range the whole time. And I dont remember him being nearly as smoked as Me, or Donny, or Caleb when he was done. I guarantee you we were all in fairly good overall condition from this type of training alone.

In any event, good luck with your training, ill be interested to see your blog.

glenn

[SMarcella]

Glenn,

Well, you weren't kidding. We just finished doing the CJ 10/10 OTM (105kilo) and Snatch OTM (70kilo).....It was definitely an A** Kicker. Snatch was not too bad but the Clean killed us. I don't think I will be following up the workout with any GPP for a few weeks with the program you posted.

Thanks again,
Stephan

[texaslifter]

It is definately very tough. I have done a couple of mills 20/20 workouts and they are tough also. I did a 10/10 with 70 kg and 90 kg and it wiped me out, I was sore for a couple of days. I'll be picking this back up after lifting at the Arnold in a couple of weeks.

[SMarcella]

Glenn - going into my third day of the program you outlined for me for and so far I like it. I am starting to realize my jerk is behind my clean. I am not able to get a good split on half the attempts, therefore, I was thinking of breaking up the CJ during the timed sets where I will just do the clean OTM then do rack jerks with a lower %. What are are thoughts on breaking the lift up?

Stephan

[glennpendlay]

Stephan,

If you have a real problem with your jerks, I dont think there is any reason not to break up the lift. But I do think that you should try to do them together at least one day a week.

When I have had this problem before, weak jerk, for other lifters doing a similar program, we did clean and jerk on monday at a weight that allowed good jerks, took the cleans out of it on wednesday and just concentrated on jerks, and then on friday did cleans only in the 10/10 fashion but with a heavier weight than monday, something appropriate to your cleaning strength, then some light jerks afterwards. You might try something like this, it might work for you also.

glenn

[SMarcella]

Glenn,

Where would snatch balances and OHS fit in the program you outlines a few posts ago, if at all. I am assuming they can be added later. What are your thoughts on these supplemental movents and where/when do they fit into a program?

Thanks,
Stephan

[leighton]

Any chance of making this thread a sticky?