Can you gain strength with the Olympic lifts?

[glennpendlay]

http://www.pendlay.com/Can-you-build-strength-with-the-Olympic-lifts_df_75.html

Discuss...

[kderbyshire]

One of the main sources of the ”Olympic lifts don’t build strength” argument has also stated that one should be able to clean between 50% and 60% of your maximum deadlift, and that anything more than this is the result of extreme athletic ability. This is difficult to fathom, as I cannot ever recall anyone with percentages so low!

Wow. Even I can do that, and I'm a not particularly skillful beginner. And 45. And a girl.

Katherine

[80sMediumSized]

Guys can you build strength by lifting heavy barbells off the ground and then overhead?!!

[glennpendlay]

Guys can you build strength by lifting heavy barbells off the ground and then overhead?!!

lol, of course not, what in the hell are you thinking???

[Brian DeGennaro]

My only comment is what about the world record holders and champions who snatch and CJ less than 60/80% respectively of their BS? Many of them you can clearly see have proficient technique, is it maybe just bad luck they do not hit these numbers in competition? Tapering off of drugs? Maybe their training PRs fall in line with the ratios?

I dunno, some food for thought.

[Wlfdg]

Guys can you build strength by lifting heavy barbells off the ground and then overhead?!!
That's an amazing concept. I think I'll give it a try!

[jkl]

While I understand highly specialized lifter can clean more than front squat and back squat more than deadlift, is really 60% of deadlift clean so weak? If one lifter had what I consider typical ratios, that would be 200Kg BS, 250Kg DL, 155KG C&J. Unless somebody is highly specialized, I wouldn't describe clean with 150Kg as weak with 200Kg BS/250Kg DL.

[NewWorldMan]

So a powerlifter who has only snatched 82.5 and C&Jed 105 may not have the best experience using the lifts to gain strength and has consequently formed a fallacious opinion on the matter?

Even though they have already stated, "The problem is demographic: we don't have the strongest athletes in Olympic weightlifting in this country, for various reasons. Since this is the case, if we want to improve our performances we have to stop pretending that strength can be acquired by simply doing the snatch and the C&J, since this obviously does not occur post-novice."

well duh - I guess it's 'obvious'.

[80sMediumSized]

People frequently talk about carryover from squats to cj/snatch, but what about the other way around? If my backsquat is in the "normal" range of 1.2-1.4 * c+j, would it go up in absolute terms from just doing heavy clean and jerks for several months? (the ratio can change, but will the backsquat max itself increase a bit?)

[glennpendlay]

While I understand highly specialized lifter can clean more than front squat and back squat more than deadlift, is really 60% of deadlift clean so weak? If one lifter had what I consider typical ratios, that would be 200Kg BS, 250Kg DL, 155KG C&J. Unless somebody is highly specialized, I wouldn't describe clean with 150Kg as weak with 200Kg BS/250Kg DL.

I would not call a 550lb deadlifter weak either, no matter how much he could clean or deadlift. But that ratio is highly unlikely for a competitive lifter, and that's what I was talking about, competitive lifters. Maybe I wasn't clear enough about that point.

[glennpendlay]

So a powerlifter who has only snatched 82.5 and C&Jed 105 may not have the best experience using the lifts to gain strength and has consequently formed a fallacious opinion on the matter?

Even though they have already stated, "The problem is demographic: we don't have the strongest athletes in Olympic weightlifting in this country, for various reasons. Since this is the case, if we want to improve our performances we have to stop pretending that strength can be acquired by simply doing the snatch and the C&J, since this obviously does not occur post-novice."

well duh - I guess it's 'obvious'.

Who said that? I think I know but am not sure. PM me if you don't want to put it on the forum.

[glennpendlay]

People frequently talk about carryover from squats to cj/snatch, but what about the other way around? If my backsquat is in the "normal" range of 1.2-1.4 * c+j, would it go up in absolute terms from just doing heavy clean and jerks for several months? (the ratio can change, but will the backsquat max itself increase a bit?)

I did a bit of an experiment a 3-4 years ago with a couple of brothers who had trained for 6 months and were, as I remember 13 and 15 years old. For that 6 months, they had done a standard amount of squatting, usually multiple sets of 5 on monday and friday, and sets of 3 on the front squat on wednesday. They had both made reasonable progress on the squat, both moved up at least one weight class, etc. Both also clean and jerked about the same as they could front squat, and about the same as they could do for a set of 5 on the back squat.

I had both of them STOP doing any squats for 6 months, and replaced that by having them do about double the cleans in training each week that they had been doing. They both did well, continued to make progress, etc. After 6 months I let them both do 2-3 workouts on the back squat to get familiar with the exercise again, then tested them for a 5 rep max. I found that they had progressed almost exactly the same on the back squat in the 6 months where they didnt squat as they did in the 6 months where they were squatting 3 times a week. Seems that adding 20kg to your clean does in fact affect the back squat.

I dont recommend stopping back squatting. But this really showed me that the lifts and the squats both affect each other, its not a one way street.

[NickHorton]

My only comment is what about the world record holders and champions who snatch and CJ less than 60/80% respectively of their BS? Many of them you can clearly see have proficient technique, is it maybe just bad luck they do not hit these numbers in competition? Tapering off of drugs? Maybe their training PRs fall in line with the ratios?

I dunno, some food for thought.

Brian, I've always suspected that this happens because the person is an unusually good squatter. Some people are just plain built awesome for squatting and will have a bigger difference.

Remember that Roman's numbers were AVERAGES, meaning there will be Jon North's out there who clean at or more than their front squats, and other lifters who can't clean anything unless they can front squat a lot more than it. But, it evens out to about 80% along the bell curve.

Also, the ceiling for your squats is much higher than the ceiling for your cleans. So, as you start reaching world record status on the clean and jerk ... you still have a long way to go on the squats if you really want to push it.

This is when some coaches might prefer to pull back from so much squatting and try to inch out every last kilo on the lifts. But, other programs will keep them pushing the weights up and up continuing to increase the discrepancy.

[jkl]

I would not call a 550lb deadlifter weak either, no matter how much he could clean or deadlift. But that ratio is highly unlikely for a competitive lifter, and that's what I was talking about, competitive lifters. Maybe I wasn't clear enough about that point.

Thanks for clarification, so maybe from another perspective, it would be more like competitive weightlifters have weak deadlift compared to BS an C&J? For what it's worth, they're not usually lifting with optimal technique for maximal weights, thus one possibility of BS>DL (Look for Konstantin Konstantinovs' pulls for extreme deadlift specialization(relaxed upper back etc)).

Maybe it's just matter of perspective, but BS>DL and C&J equal to 80%+ of BS in weightlifters is some kind of "extreme athletic ability", namely being highly specialized strength athlete. It all depends how one (Greg) would like to define "extreme athletic ability".

What is more important, do you say that only highly competitive weightlifters (C&J 80%+ of BS) are the only one who can benefit strength wise (or benefit most) from pure oly work? It's highly unlikely that 280Kg squatter mentioned would C&J 230Kg+ as a strength training routinely any time soon :)

I have read your post about brothers, however being trained by you, they most probably fall squarely in "competitive weightlifters category".

Thanks for starting this interesting discussion.

Some other forum..

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=23226&p=249841#post249841

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=23226&p=250766#post250766

I personally agree with "explosive athletes can get more out of their strength, and that less-explosive athletes HAVE to be stronger to snatch and C&J as much weight", if technique is on similar level.

[glennpendlay]

Thanks for clarification, so maybe from another perspective, it would be more like competitive weightlifters have weak deadlift compared to BS an C&J? For what it's worth, they're not usually lifting with optimal technique for maximal weights, thus one possibility of BS>DL (Look for Konstantin Konstantinovs' pulls for extreme deadlift specialization(relaxed upper back etc)).

I think this is the source of some of the DL discrepancy. Weightlifters are just not used to pulling with a bent back, will usually attempt to keep a straight back, and not being used to the feeling of having their back bend, will often shut down when this happens. Those who are used to this have the "skill" of making use of the back bend to increase leverage. I suspect that if you compare the BS and DL numbers from powerlifters and weightlifters, and insist that everyone keep a straight back, you would see the differences shrink quite a bit. Alternatively, if the weightlifters spent a few months "learning" to be comfortable pulling with a rounded back the same thing would happen.

What is more important, do you say that only highly competitive weightlifters (C&J 80%+ of BS) are the only one who can benefit strength wise (or benefit most) from pure oly work?

I don't think it's an all or nothing situation. But, I do think that the closer your clean is to your front and back squat, the more influence it has on maximal strength. This doesnt mean you have to be a competitive weightlifter to reap any benefits, we have several high school football players that have cleans that are above 70% of their back squat, and these are not weak beginners, I'm talking about kids who squat over 500lbs raw, or with just a belt.

I have read your post about brothers, however being trained by you, they most probably fall squarely in "competitive weightlifters category".

These guys were definately competitive lifters. I don't recommend that anyone stop squatting. I did this experiment because Abadjiev has commented several times that he thought that eliminating the squat entirely was the next logical step in the evolution of his system, and that doing that was likely to be a superior way to train vs. the way he trained athletes in Bulgaria. Being curious, I wanted to try it, and I was lucky enough to happen upon two kids who were willing to try and who had trained about long enough, IMO, to be ideal subjects. For these two kids, I did not find that eliminating squats proved to be either much better or much worse. I would warn though, that you can only go so far in drawing conclusions from two brothers of 13 and 15 years of age with 6 months experience in the sport.


Thanks for starting this interesting discussion.



As usual, have to type something outside the quote marks to get the post to go through.

[Daniel Gam]

in the past, in attempt to get stronger, i've cut down on the olympic lifts a lot to do some pretty involved squatting programs. i got a little stronger and my lifts went up a little.

i started doing the beginner template on this website in jan, which involves snatching heavy, cleaning heavy, and squatting (only 3x5 BS or 3x3 FS) on the same day, and my squats and lifts have made the most progress they have in a long while

...not related, but i was wondering when the articles for intermediate programming and russian programming will be coming out. i've been eagerly waiting

[glennpendlay]

in the past, in attempt to get stronger, i've cut down on the olympic lifts a lot to do some pretty involved squatting programs. i got a little stronger and my lifts went up a little.

i started doing the beginner template on this website in jan, which involves snatching heavy, cleaning heavy, and squatting (only 3x5 BS or 3x3 FS) on the same day, and my squats and lifts have made the most progress they have in a long while

...not related, but i was wondering when the articles for intermediate programming and russian programming will be coming out. i've been eagerly waiting

Daniel,

Glad the beginners program is working for you. I have gotten a lot of feedback from that article, all of it positive and I am glad it is working for so many people.

Presenting the information that I would like to present that pertains to athletes above the beginner stage is a little more complicated, because once you are past the beginner stage training is constantly evolving and changing. It is a little more difficult to present this in an organized and coherent manner. One step forward was the first Level 2 seminar that I gave last weekend in Florida. In the Level 1 seminar, we give a lot of beginner information, but in the Level 2 we are going into setting up an actual training program and how and when to change this program as an athlete progresses, or in other words, how to deal with an intermediate lifter. I wanted to present it to a live audience at least once before working too much on an article, just to see if I was presenting it in a way that was understandable or if there were parts that needed clarifying. Now that this seminar is over, I am once again trying to put this stuff into a nice coherent package.

As far as the article about Medvev's training, I am waiting on Pete Roselli to finish his article.

[jkl]

we have several high school football players that have cleans that are above 70% of their back squat That sounds about normal, the deadlift inconsistency is what threw whole equation really high. e.g. in 60%+ real maximum deadlift or 80%+ BS area.

I suspect that if you compare the BS and DL numbers from powerlifters and weightlifters, and insist that everyone keep a straight back

Probably powerlifters would start pulling sumo then and insist they're abiding the rules :)

As always, thanks for taking the time to answer.

[Dave Rogerson]

I wouldnt consider myself to be overtly strong, but i do have a base-level of maximal strength, having deadlifted an unequipped 260kg at about 80kg bodyweight.

Again, I am new to the lifts and (sadly) getting on a bit in WL terms, but one of the things I found initially was that I was unable to transfer my strength into the explosive nature of the lifts. Yes I could break the floor pretty easily with my weights, but past the scoop, found exerting maximal acceleration into the hip extension to be difficult.

I would liken it to feeling like I was running in sand; I felt as though I was able to do it, but something was holding me back.

This is now changing, and things are improving for me. My thoughts are that for me, I was not (and probably still not to an extent) technically sufficient to allow my strength to translate into the lifts effectively. I probably wasnt good enough to be able to demonstrate my underlying physical strength. Much less so for the jerk, but certainly for the snatch and perhaps clean too. However now that loads are becoming challenging I am seeing benefits elsewhere. My clean goes up, I feel as though my front squat, torso strength and hip strength certainly increases.

Perhaps then those folks that come into it a little older dont give themselves enough time to develop sufficient motor skills to allow that base-level of strength to translate, assuming that because they are strong and can't perform the lifts well, that it is all technique.

To say that the lifts dont build strength is foolish. I was unable to squat for 4 weeks or so due to a back injury, and within 2 weeks of getting back into them again I have matched my front squat numbers from before.

[glennpendlay]

I wouldnt consider myself to be overtly strong, but i do have a base-level of maximal strength, having deadlifted an unequipped 260kg at about 80kg bodyweight.

Again, I am new to the lifts and (sadly) getting on a bit in WL terms, but one of the things I found initially was that I was unable to transfer my strength into the explosive nature of the lifts. Yes I could break the floor pretty easily with my weights, but past the scoop, found exerting maximal acceleration into the hip extension to be difficult.

I would liken it to feeling like I was running in sand; I felt as though I was able to do it, but something was holding me back.

This is now changing, and things are improving for me. My thoughts are that for me, I was not (and probably still not to an extent) technically sufficient to allow my strength to translate into the lifts effectively. I probably wasnt good enough to be able to demonstrate my underlying physical strength. Much less so for the jerk, but certainly for the snatch and perhaps clean too. However now that loads are becoming challenging I am seeing benefits elsewhere. My clean goes up, I feel as though my front squat, torso strength and hip strength certainly increases.

Perhaps then those folks that come into it a little older dont give themselves enough time to develop sufficient motor skills to allow that base-level of strength to translate, assuming that because they are strong and can't perform the lifts well, that it is all technique.

To say that the lifts dont build strength is foolish. I was unable to squat for 4 weeks or so due to a back injury, and within 2 weeks of getting back into them again I have matched my front squat numbers from before.

Dave,

Wow, congrats on the big deadlift! Pretty impressive for your bodyweight. And also, congrats on having a realistic outlook on things. If you start training the lifts as you are "getting on" in years as you said you were, of course it is going to be harder to get to a point where the lifts are high enough to effectively challenge your strength. Especially if you have a previous history as a strength athlete, which a 260 deadlift weighing 80 certainly qualifies for.

But to say that this situation has anything to do with a 15 or 16 year old who is clean and jerking a weight he cant back squat for 5 is, well, ridiculous. Yet that is what some claim, and that is why I wrote the article.

[Dave Rogerson]

Dave,

Wow, congrats on the big deadlift! Pretty impressive for your bodyweight. And also, congrats on having a realistic outlook on things. If you start training the lifts as you are "getting on" in years as you said you were, of course it is going to be harder to get to a point where the lifts are high enough to effectively challenge your strength. Especially if you have a previous history as a strength athlete, which a 260 deadlift weighing 80 certainly qualifies for.

But to say that this situation has anything to do with a 15 or 16 year old who is clean and jerking a weight he cant back squat for 5 is, well, ridiculous. Yet that is what some claim, and that is why I wrote the article.

Apologies from the confusion on my part. Clearly the statement that the lifts don't build strength in this context is absolutely absurd. Simply, if a lifter is pulling the barbell from the floor he/she must be strong enough to deadlift it. If a lifter is recovering from a lift then he/she needs to be able to squat it.

When you have youngsters like Caleb clean and jerking massive weights then you can be certain that these guys are strong, massively strong. I think much of the problem is the metrics / tools that some use to define strength, which are most likely the product of tradition and ease of application. We see lifts like squats and deads being the measuring tools for maximal strength in the lower body and torso, but rarely do we see the squat clean used in a similar context. Clearly strength is needed to break a heavy clean from the floor, and indeed stand up with it during the recovery. Let alone absorb the impact of receiving the force of the loaded barbell.

In the case of the strength coach working with the team, very rarely is he/she able to provide the one to one tuition needed to develop a decent level of competency in the lifts, and equally as important is that most athletes are only able to dedicate a finite amount of time and energy into non-specific training. However a squat or a deadlift by comparison is an easier motor task to teach and learn.

In my mind, if we assume the range of strength qualities that some allege to exist: Maximal strength, explosive strength, strength-speed etc, etc, etc. From a purely theoretical perspective you could argue that a lift like the clean and jerk would require greater overall strength / force producing capability than a squat or a deadlift, by simple virtue of the range of abilities needed to perform the lifts effectively.

[pikku]

I think even going down to the level of what strength actually is, broadly: a function of muscular (bigger=potentially stronger) and neural factors (rate coding, inter/intra muscular coordination, technique and all that); it should be pretty clear that the Olympic lifts tick all those boxes and therefore can be used to gain strength.

[kon]

I did this experiment because Abadjiev has commented several times that he thought that eliminating the squat entirely was the next logical step in the evolution of his system, and that doing that was likely to be a superior way to train vs. the way he trained athletes in Bulgaria.

I find this pretty interesting. What's the reasoning behind this instead of keeping front squats? It sounds like if you keep front squats in it would be easier to increase strength. Does he assume that the lifter who would not even front squat would have a very very efficient and good technique so that the olympic lifts challenge his strength levels?

[glennpendlay]

I find this pretty interesting. What's the reasoning behind this instead of keeping front squats? It sounds like if you keep front squats in it would be easier to increase strength. Does he assume that the lifter who would not even front squat would have a very very efficient and good technique so that the olympic lifts challenge his strength levels?

I believe his reasoning is that if you do only the competitive lifts, ALL the adaptive ability of the body is going to be concentrating on the specific adaptations of doing the lifts. Obviously if you are not squatting, you could do a lot more cleans for instance. I really don't know if it is the next step forward or not, but it worked fairly well in this one instance.

[agavurin]

Not sure if this should go here or in the thread about beginners program but I'll try here first.

I need some hypertrophy (and clean weight gain) from the beginners program, and I'm not concerned I won't gain squating and pressing strength. I'm 5'11" and about 160lb. I'm finishing 7mos on SS and have had some clean weight gain but I'm 26 so I haven't had weight gain like Rip talks about, prob 12ish clean pounds.

How should I adjust the beginners program to make sure I get max hypertrophy? My squat is above 1.5xbw but shoulder flexability and strength are lacking. Obv clean weight gain will be accompanied by lifting progress and being new to CJ and snatch I will make lots of progress just from increased volume and attention to technique, jerk and snatch are less than 50% top back squat and clean is a little more than 50%

What's the course of action.

[glennpendlay]

Not sure if this should go here or in the thread about beginners program but I'll try here first.

I need some hypertrophy (and clean weight gain) from the beginners program, and I'm not concerned I won't gain squating and pressing strength. I'm 5'11" and about 160lb. I'm finishing 7mos on SS and have had some clean weight gain but I'm 26 so I haven't had weight gain like Rip talks about, prob 12ish clean pounds.

How should I adjust the beginners program to make sure I get max hypertrophy? My squat is above 1.5xbw but shoulder flexability and strength are lacking. Obv clean weight gain will be accompanied by lifting progress and being new to CJ and snatch I will make lots of progress just from increased volume and attention to technique, jerk and snatch are less than 50% top back squat and clean is a little more than 50%

What's the course of action.

To me you sound like someone who should just do the program pretty much as is for at least 2-3 months before you start to think about making changes.

[PDM]

I know this whole thing is about how to best train olympic level athletes, but here is what I learned the last 6months as 37yo, 85kg master's lifter.

6months ago:
BS 345lbs-Not A2A, more of a LBBS
DL 435lbs
Press 165lbs
C&J 120kg (264lbs)
Snatch 200lbs

At the beginning of the year, I decided my lifts should be higher based on my BS and DL. I believed I was capable of 285lbs C&J and 225 Snatch. From Feb-April I pretty much just snatch, clean and jerked seriously. Some back squats, some FS. At the end of March, I hit 220 (97/123) at IL state championships. About 2 weeks later, I snatch 220lbs. Then I did this:
BS 345-A2A, deeper then before, high bar squat
DL 445lbs (+10lbs)
Press 190lbs (+25lbs)

BW was about the same in the past 6month. So, for me, not a novice, focusing on the snatch and clean and jerk and improving those lifts resulted in a stronger DL, press and squat.

[fredarn]

I just came over a study on this topic, where they looked at the correlation between weightlifting performance and 1RM squat and isometric mid-high pull strength.

Stone MH et al. Relationship of maximum strength to weightlifting performance. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2005 Jun;37(6):1037-43.

"When collectively considering scaling methods, maximum strength is strongly related to weightlifting performance independent of body mass and height differences. Furthermore, men are stronger than women even when body mass and height are obviated by scaling methods."

[mhansbrough]

I'm glad to see this article because weightlifters in this country always have to hear about that kind of stuff. Also very true that Roman and other authors are working with close to ideal lifters who started out the right way and young.

Which begs the question, how do we as a country where WL is not in the spotlight, make adjustments so each lifter can reach their potential? Whatever there status or age when they begin training.

[deadlift425]

I actually recover much better from olympic lifting than just squatting and deadliting. It is much easier for me to squat at the end of a session now even after doing the classical lifts.

[David Woodhouse]

I dont recommend stopping back squatting. But this really showed me that the lifts and the squats both affect each other, its not a one way street.


This comment reminds me of an observation made by Charlie Francis, i.e. not only do heavy squats benefit sprinting but also, and less intuitively, high quality sprinting helps improve the squat. I believe this is primarily a result of increased neural output or ‘central drive’.

Due to knee injuries (and surgery) I was not able to squat in the whole of 2010 however, by modifying my training, I was able to set power snatch and clean pbs...

[glennpendlay]

This comment reminds me of an observation made by Charlie Francis, i.e. not only do heavy squats benefit sprinting but also, and less intuitively, high quality sprinting helps improve the squat. I believe this is primarily a result of increased neural output or ‘central drive’.

Due to knee injuries (and surgery) I was not able to squat in the whole of 2010 however, by modifying my training, I was able to set power snatch and clean pbs...

More proof that although the back squat is important and useful, it is not the end all and be all of weightlifting.

[Neanderthal]

The lifts (especially the snatch) have helped me improve my drive technique in the bottom position of the squat and help my pulling technique in the deadlift, which have directly increased the weights on the bar in the squats and deadlift. I had flexibility problem until quite recently but some stretching and (funny looking) gymnastics made that a non-issue nowadays.

I'm squated more today after a heavy snatch session than I've ever squated before, without a belt and in a three month diet!

[Ryan.Johnston]

I am doing cleans much easier and getting under faster with some modifications in technique. My squat strength is only marginally higher than before my knee issues and I actually do far less volume.

It's probably fair to say that Uncle Ivan may just be right for a more advanced lifter with potential elimination of squatting.

I say that because if you watch the Unbelievable Bulgarians training previews, Ivanov at under 60kg is front squatting 210kg, over 3x his body weight. There's a point of diminishing returns here as he was jerking 175kg with straps. I don't remember him doing even that much in competition.

[oldgit]

cant remmeber if ive posted already re this-long long thread! its quite simple this powerlifter v weightlifter debate-i am ex-champion powerlifter,so if anything gonna be biased towards them-but no! like for like-male and female-all ages from youth to masters-weightlifters are stronger and more powerful than powerlifters-end of debate! no powerlift champ or indeed a strongman can get anywhere near the weightlift totals of a similar individual-but every single blooming weightlifter i have met could obliterate the squat and deadlift world records/national etc in powerlifting! for gods sake,little zoe smith from gb-not even top 6 in the world-squats more unequipped with high bar than gb equipped powerlifting senior record! i have seen glover,kirkbride,oliver,wager,hannah,gumbley-just good gb lifters of all ages-weightlifting squat and clean grip deadlift with low hips more than gbpf winning lifts at nationals!

[glennpendlay]

cant remmeber if ive posted already re this-long long thread! its quite simple this powerlifter v weightlifter debate-i am ex-champion powerlifter,so if anything gonna be biased towards them-but no! like for like-male and female-all ages from youth to masters-weightlifters are stronger and more powerful than powerlifters-end of debate! no powerlift champ or indeed a strongman can get anywhere near the weightlift totals of a similar individual-but every single blooming weightlifter i have met could obliterate the squat and deadlift world records/national etc in powerlifting! for gods sake,little zoe smith from gb-not even top 6 in the world-squats more unequipped with high bar than gb equipped powerlifting senior record! i have seen glover,kirkbride,oliver,wager,hannah,gumbley-just good gb lifters of all ages-weightlifting squat and clean grip deadlift with low hips more than gbpf winning lifts at nationals!

I think with "raw" powerlifting becoming more popular, we are starting to see some of the eastern europeans use a more "weightlifting" training style in powerlifting... and producing some pretty amazing lifts.

Is it possible, maybe, that the differences in training style between the two sports might be responsible for your observations? And that this difference might be due to how the two sports have developed?