Should I Get A Bigger Squat?

[Gary Gibson]

I weigh 80 kg and my bests right now are probably 70-75/85-90 based on what I could triple at the end of last cycle. My bests before my layoff were 74/88. I'm new to proper weightlifting so obviously I have to keep working on technique and ingrain correct motor patterns. But my Olympic squat is currently maybe 115 kg with a 105 kg front squat. That's awfully light...but that also suggests that my efficiency is pretty good. My best clean is almost 85% of my front squat and 80% of my back squat; and my best snatch is 66% of my back squat. If I up my classic lifts much more right now without upping my squat, I'd be displaying some unusually high efficiency! Especially considering how inexperienced I am and how naturally explosive I am not.

So maybe I should up my squat in order to up my classic lifts..? My technique needs a lifetime of refining, but maybe I really just need to be able to squat more right now. I know that the squat's benefits slow down at the higher end; adding 50 kilos to the squat probably wouldn't help a weightlifter who already squats 300 kilos. But for a guy squatting 115 @ 80...? Another 50 kilos may do a world of good.

[Matt Erdman]

Yes you should.

[Jason Bourgeois]

Gary,

I would suggest figuring out why your squat is where it is as opposed to where you want it to be.

For about one year I worked desperately to improve my back squat. It never went up. I eventually doubled the number of working sets in an effort to stimulate improvement. After about a week of that I noticed that my psoas and glute medius were aching all the time. To me this says that those muscles, which are largely responsible for pushing the hips back under the shoulders in the squat were my weak link. I spent another few months doing single legged deadlifts and high bar good mornings to improve their strength. My squat has gone up considerably.

Since you are an efficient lifter, the lack of squatting strength is likely not due to lack of leg strength. If you can pull the bar easily to your shoulders, your legs are probably strong enough to squat it. Something else may be hindering your movement.

Just for reference my best clean and jerk is 2.5 kg heavier than my best front squat.

[Gary Gibson]

Thanks, Matt. It is my hope that going from BS/FS ~120/105 to BS/FS 150/135 will do much to drag up my SN/CJ from ~75/90 to 100/120. I read here a lot that lifters shouldn't expect more squat strength to work miracles in the lifts, but surely when squat strength is so lacking it must help a lot. I mean I'm not going to clean 120 when my back squat is only 120, right?

Jason, it looks like my main problem was a horrific accumulation of scar tissue and trigger points that just never got addressed during the past few years of increasingly heavy training. My quads, particularly the left one, were especially bad. I just started PVC rolling and the problems are already clearing up. I thought I was going to pass out the first time I used the PVC pipe a couple days ago, but a lot of the pain and inhibition plaguing my left quad for months disappeared right away.

Nice clean/fs ratio by the way.

[Christine Petty]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but squats are assistance work for the lifts, right?
Annnnd... you have two banged up knees you're in the process of rehabbing... so you want to pile on weight for your squat because?

[glennpendlay]

Gary,

I am of the opinion that one should always be trying to get a bigger squat, provided the effort doesnt interfere too much with the rest of training. If you can push the squat up without hurting any other aspect of training, do it. If not, you have to do a cost/benefit analysis.

Jason,

I hope you stick around. I like the way you think. Hope to see you at a competition sometime.

glenn

[olympicweightlifting123]

Squatting way more than you need to increases efficiency. Lifters like Dimas who were clean and jerking 215kg had a relatively easy clean (given that Dimas best front squat was around 270kg). However you do not need to squat this much in order to achieve easier technique. Pat Mendes has an 800 pound Back squat even though it really doesn't change much. Just like Glenn said....if you can work on your squat without it making you tired go for it. However focus on technique. In the end it mostly comes down to repetitions.

A faster way of increasing your squat is to squat 6 times a week aiming for singles and doubles (heavy every other day or possibly every day). For the majority of humans (if not all) this is just not possible.

[Gary Gibson]

Well, it looks like I may have a disruptive event coming up in my life that will prevent training for several months. Maybe that would be a good thing since I'm severely overtrained (high volume/high frequency squatting for two years straight) and maybe need a year off or so anyway. There's little point to training if I can't improve my Olympic squat and get it past double bodyweight.

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Well, it looks like I may have a disruptive event coming up in my life that will prevent training for several months. Maybe that would be a good thing since I'm severely overtrained (high volume/high frequency squatting for two years straight) and maybe need a year off or so anyway. There's little point to training if I can't improve my Olympic squat and get it past double bodyweight.

Well Shit Gary! That sucks. What happened? Work/family or injury? Get well and get back to it soon. Everything happens for a reason.

And there is very much a point in training despite whatever you squat. As I see it, and I'm an old novice in this game, improvement in ones self is part of a positive evolution. I cannot lift the weights I once lifted and, at first, that was very difficult for me to accept. But I grew to acknowledge that the me today is not the same me I was 20 years ago. I have a lot more going on, a lot more to do, and a lot more to accomplish. I may not be able to do as much, but I do the movement itself better. And that technical proficiency is what I am striving for at this point.

In a sense, it's like being Fabio - not much on substance, but hella awesome to look at. It's just that my technique is more of a Seth Rogan or Jack Black on that scale right now. But it was definitely Marty Feldman or Winston Churchill when i started. :D

All the best,
Arden

[Christine Petty]

Well, it looks like I may have a disruptive event coming up in my life that will prevent training for several months. Maybe that would be a good thing since I'm severely overtrained (high volume/high frequency squatting for two years straight) and maybe need a year off or so anyway. There's little point to training if I can't improve my Olympic squat and get it past double bodyweight.

I disagree with this. It's like saying there's little point in competing if I'm not going to be a national champion. The *destination* isn't the point, the journey is.

(lest anyone think I'm being a big meanie, Gary and I are friends)

[texaslifter]

Well, it looks like I may have a disruptive event coming up in my life that will prevent training for several months. Maybe that would be a good thing since I'm severely overtrained (high volume/high frequency squatting for two years straight) and maybe need a year off or so anyway. There's little point to training if I can't improve my Olympic squat and get it past double bodyweight.

Gary, I'm going to agree with Christine about the squatting comment. :cool:

[Gary Gibson]

If I can't improve, then why bother? If I've already done the best I'm ever going to do (a distinct possibility; nature didn't design me for barbell sport), then I may as well stop. If I lift, it will be to lift more. If I can't lift more, then it's time for P90X.

I don't want to win an Olympic medal. I want to BS/FS 170/150 @ 85 and Sn/CJ 135/110. I didn't think these were unreasonable goals (around the records for the 58 and 63 kg women). Maybe at my age and with my minimal talent for the sport they are.

[glennpendlay]

If I can't improve, then why bother? If I've already done the best I'm ever going to do (a distinct possibility; nature didn't design me for barbell sport), then I may as well stop. If I lift, it will be to lift more. If I can't lift more, then it's time for P90X.

I don't want to win an Olympic medal. I want to BS/FS 170/150 @ 85 and Sn/CJ 135/110. I didn't think these were unreasonable goals (around the records for the 58 and 63 kg women). Maybe at my age and with my minimal talent for the sport they are.

The only way to know if those are unreasonable or reasonable goals is to give an honest shot at reaching them...

[Gary Gibson]

Update!

Turns out I'm not old, decrepit and washed up. I just needed a hit of the pipe.

The PVC pipe that is.

I started rolling with a PVC pipe this week after Christine suggested a foam roller and lacrosse ball. We have a couple PVC pipes in the weight room and I used one for the first time.

Dear lord, did it hurt! But I immediately felt better. The left leg hurt more and that's the leg that showed the most drastic improvement. It looks like both my quads but especially the left were shot through with knots and scar tissue. I think my quads were unable to either fully relax or contract and all the stress was on my connective tissue when I did anything. I've since rolled three more times and the returns are diminishing, but still coming. I'm able to sprint up stairs again and sprint down the street. I can do pistols (left leg still needs practice) and squat without pain. And my knees aren't filling with excess synovial fluid after every session anymore. It's like I have a new set of legs.

Right now my lifts are tiny but proportional as a mofo. Based on recent triples:

BS 115
FS 95
CJ 85
Sn 72

(And I'm pretty sure I could DL 185 right now w/o a belt and get over 200 kg in a few weeks.)

I'm not doing any special squat loading, just 2x5 and 3x3 after the classic lifts. Now that I have my knees and quads back I'm confident my squat will start to move up in tandem with my quick lifts.

So now that I'm not hobbled by scar tissue I can get back to work.

Progression to awesomeness:
1x bodyweight snatch
2x bodyweight back squat
2x bodyweight front squat
2x bodyweight clean
2x bodyweight snatch

Odds are good that I'll never reach item three, but I won't know till I try. ;)

[kderbyshire]

Yay! Foam rollers and lacrosse and tennis balls are good, too. I'd also suggest getting a professional massage as often as time and budget allow.

Glad to see your outlook so dramatically improved.

Katherine

[Gary Gibson]

Yay! Foam rollers and lacrosse and tennis balls are good, too. I'd also suggest getting a professional massage as often as time and budget allow.

Glad to see your outlook so dramatically improved.

Katherine

Mary at East Coast Gold has Mike Walters come down on Tuesdays to provide awesome sports massage for ECG members. I just availed myself of it last week after I'd been PVC rolling. Great stuff.

Now that I've unkinked myself with rolling and massage, my squat is coming back quickly. Last night I tested a 110 kg FS and 140 kg BS, within spitting distance of my bests (120, 160) from before the layoff. That's great and all, but now I'm faced with the problem of expressing this strength in the classic lifts. I need to get my front squat closer to my back squat and I need to up my snatch and clean a lot before worrying about upping my squat strength. I keep hitting the same numbers and then stopping, however.