T or F: Strong powerlifting squat = strong olympic squat but not vice versa

[Xi Xia]

Just saw Louie Simmons make a comment on a CF journal video about squat strength. He was in the middle of spotting some of his lifters in a dynamic day box squat session and was pretty jazzed up, dropped this claim. Considering I've never seen an O-Lifter power squat wide for strength development, it raised some bells.

"Squatting wide will build a close stance squat. Close stance will not build a wide stance squat."

I realize the ROM for the powerlift squat is not even close to an Olympic squat but his claim leads me to infer that the shortened depth of the powerlift squat doesn't shortchange an athlete from a strong deep Olympic squat.

What are people's thoughts/experiences with this?

[Johan]

All I know is that when I could make a wide stance low bar parallel box squat with 170kg I still would struggle with a 120kg deep olympic squat. For me personally the olympic squat builds the PL squat, but not vice versa.

[Brian DeGennaro]

No because there is a lack of glute and quadricep strength and kinesthetic awareness not developed in the bottom ranges of motion of a deep squat. Almost every single lifter whom I have seen with high (>400lbs) low-bar or powerlifting type squats struggles coming out of the hole of a front squat or Olympic squat. The quad and glute strength in those last few inches just is not there, not to mention the movement patterns are completely different.

[HunterHenzler]

No on BOTH parts.
I've squatted mid 400's PL stance and have trouble doing mid 300's with a close stance. (Mind you, I have lost weight and don't squat as heavy.. but I can still tell there's a HUGE gap in strength there)

With all due respect to Louie, I would agree with Johan. I can see the carryover being the opposite way.

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Agreed with all three above. And, again, with all due respect to Louie.

In my opinion, they are Totallllllly different movements.

I come from a powerlifting background and I never considered squatting as wide as he advocates for his lifters. To be frank, I have a difficult time squatting the height his athletes squat. It feels un-natural to me. But that said, he has trained, and he himself, has squatted a butt-ton of weight - no matter the range of motion.

I have not tried this, but I would guestimate that I could WPO widestance squat close to 325kg raw. I've had more than that on my back before but I'm many years removed from it. If I went down with that on an oly high bar squat, or even a low bar squat that I do with a medium stance - I could not stand back up. No way in hades. I had 230kg on my back for a mucho deep low bar on Sunday - and the top half of the movement felt a lot lighter than the bottom half.

I'm sorry, but I must respectfully disagree with that characterization. At least as it would apply to me. Others may be different. And to be frank, I agree with Johan, Brian and Hunter, the converse is likely more true for most people.

All the best,
Arden

[NickHorton]

oly squat builds powerlifting squat. Not the other way around.

As was said above, the requirements of the quads and glutes in the Oly squat are just not present in the PL squat. I think there is the misconception that the difference in these movements is analogous to the difference in a full range bench press and board presses. ie, One is simply a shorter range of motion than the other ... since for the bench, there is some reason to believe that doing partial movements that allow for heavier weights will, indeed, result in bigger full range lifts.

But, the analogy is false.

PL squats aren't anything like Oly squats at all other than the fact that there is weight on your back ... and even the position of that is different.

It's more like comparing pull-downs with pull-ups ... They only LOOK similar. But, physiologically, there's a TON of difference that just don't carry over.

[Terry Gibbs]

Not sure what context Louie was talking in, but from what I have seen the transfer either way is not guaranteed.

Back in the 70's we set up a state Pl association. At our first state titles we had a former national OL champ (67.50bwt, 107.5 snatch 127.50 C & J) . He thought it would be a walk in, got third, cannot remember the dead but think he squatted 160 @ 75 (no suit or wraps it was 1977). He eventually squatted 250 @ 82.50 but took him close to 7 years to do it.

Also a former medalist at world masters who had a 127.50 C& J, who had a max power squat with one ply suit and wraps of 190, he used to joke about it.

At the pointy end very hard to be good at stuff you don't train for.

[Eric Gagnon]

Just like the wide grip bench press is a mechanically easier version of the close grip bench press, the wide stance powerlifting squat is a mechanically easier version of the olympic squat. Barring injuries or idiosyncracies you can squat more in the powerlifting squat. It make take a few sessions, particularly if you've been olympic squatting for many years, but without increasing functional strength you will squat more in the powerlifting style. It may be argued that low-bar wider stance squats (maybe not Westside-wide) yields a greater transfer to most sports performance from the greater involvement of glutes and hamstrings, it certainly doesn't yield greater strength in olympic squats. I've seen this in hundreds of people starting with myself. However, a unique case could be made of an individual who squatted, let's say 300lb olympic-style, and for some reason turned to powerlifting squats, after many years gets his powerlifting squat to 600lbs, switches to olympic squats, for a reason or another, and rapidly gets 400lbs. It must be noted that it took "many years" for his olympic squat to increase by 100lbs. Had he stuck to olympic squats he may have hit 500 in the same time frame. Louie has contributed very much to strength training but his assertions are not always correct. If he can post a video of one of his lifter put up a "no-no-no" squat of 800lbs...today...I may change my beliefs.

[ThePman220]

OL/high-bar style has always been the core squat style for me. It translates to deadlifts, front squats, and overall mobility. The PL wide-stance style hasn't done much but tweak my hips and cause a few torn muscles.

[80sMediumSized]

I think stance/depth is far more important than bar placement. If your low bar squat is with the same stance width as you would high bar squat with and to similar depth (think Kirk Karwowski, Ed Coan, some 70s powerlifters) you'll be good at both movements. I'm willing to bet most of the top IPF lifters have very good high bar squats, and I'm willing to bet most people training at west-side have relatively poor high bar squats... like probably even under their bench.

I trained solely low bar close stance atg depth squats with oly shoes while on starting strength, and when switching to oly lifting I was immediately able to 3x5rm hb squat a little over 90% of my 3x5rm low bar squat. I was front squatting once a week toward the middle of the linear progression so that probably helped too.

[glennpendlay]

I agree that stance and depth are important. Medium stance and going all the way down, and you are gonna be good to go.

[Gary Gibson]

I have been one of the staunchest advocates of the low bar squat. I even wrote an article or two for Rip about how great it is.

But these days I'm high bar squatting.

I got up to a 190 kg @ 80 kg in raw USAPL competition (belt and sleeves). My high bar squat did improve a bit as did my front squat as I got stronger on the low bar.

But my weightlifts continued to suck. I decided to focus on WL for a while so I could get my snatch over bodyweight sometime before I died. I focused on high bar and the classic lifts for a while and almost immediately my vertical went up over an inch.

With low bar my quads had lost all sorts of bottom position strength. I'd been powering through my high bar with my hamstrings. When I started staying more upright, my quads immediately responded. I quickly regained range of motion and strength at the bottom. I found I was able to do pistols again, an ability I'd slowly lost over my two-year focus on the low bar squat.

Low bar does benefit the hams over the quads and glutes. But I want to weightlift not sprint, so I'm going to do high bar.

[glennpendlay]

Gary,

As you hopefully know I am not completely against the low bar squat, although I am against them for weightlifters... and I tend to think that in many other cases also the high bar has more carryover than the low bar, but that's another issue. I think your experience as a competitive weightlifter is a valuable one that I think many people can benefit from.

Any chance you would want to get ahold of me at glennpendlay@yahoo.com? Couple of training issues id like to get your opinion/experience on privately concerning switching back and forth betweeen the two squatting styles?

glenn

[Gary Gibson]

Gary,

As you hopefully know I am not completely against the low bar squat, although I am against them for weightlifters... and I tend to think that in many other cases also the high bar has more carryover than the low bar, but that's another issue. I think your experience as a competitive weightlifter is a valuable one that I think many people can benefit from.

Any chance you would want to get ahold of me at glennpendlay@yahoo.com? Couple of training issues id like to get your opinion/experience on privately concerning switching back and forth betweeen the two squatting styles?

glenn

My pleasure. But in the interest of accuracy I have to admit that I am not yet a competitive weightlifter. I crashed and burned before I could get around to competing. So far I am only a competitive powerlifter. And the way I feel now makes me believe it will be several months before I compete in either.

[COACHMCCAULEY]

I have had no personal lifting or coaching experience that leads me to put any creedence in that statement by Simmons.

Personnally, after doing the standard Olympic back and front squat for years, when I took up powerlifting, I thought of the wide footed/low bar squat as a neat trick. I could get more weight almost immediately and not work nearly so hard. But, I continued to use the Olympic squat in much of my training.

[mhansbrough]

I visited Westside Barbell and worked with Louie for a couple hours. He was awesome and showed me some different things they use. I've also spent some time with Dave Tate at one of his seminars and we all did some "dynamic box squats." After my first set Dave said "damn, you could make the olympic team!" I had never done any serious work on powerlifting and never done a box squat and not only am I not even a mediocre weightlifter...my squat is very weak. The arguement really is pointless as weightlifters train for their sport and powerlifters train for theirs but that was my personal experience with it. And also, Louie and Dave are great guys and I really appreciated their willingness to share their knowledge witha stranger who just called out of nowhere.

[NickHorton]

The arguement really is pointless as weightlifters train for their sport and powerlifters train for theirs but that was my personal experience with it.

Very good point. In sports, specificity is king.

Though, physiologically, it makes more sense to do better going from an Oly squat to a PL squat.

I know that when I switched from PL to OL, I went from having a 450# PL back squat to a 135# Front squat ... oh boy, was that good for the ego.

[Daniel Bell]

I trained at Westside back in the early 90's. At that time, Louie bemoaned the fact that his lifters had no quads and made them do high bar, close stance, ass to calves back squats--just what we Olympic lifters do. It was comical to watch all those 800+ pound "squatters" take off the suits and knee wraps and do a real squat. Suddenly 400 pounds was pinning these guys. They hated it.

Contrast that with all the second tier Russian Olympic lifters who do a power meet on a lark and easily do 800+ with a belt and knee wraps. (Seen it)

So, the reverse is actually true. But Louie isn't selling Olympic lifting.

[Michael Hartman]

Thanks for the info Dan. Along those lines, there was a female lifter from Westside who competed in at least one Olympic meet. I believe she had a PL comp Sq and DL near 500lbs at 123-132lbs, but was only capable of a ~100kg OL total. You may have been around Westside during that time.

[Daniel Bell]

Good friend of mine. She got me into Westside. Years later, after I switched to Olympic lifting and Started CWLC with Mark Cannella, she came to us on the sly to add Olympic lifting to her workouts. (Louie would NOT have approved) She had won Worlds but held no world records. After a year of covert training in the O-lifts to help her speed and explosion, she set records in the back squat and total.

The thing I remember most about Amy is that over the years of bulking up and cutting down to 123, her relaxed muscles felt like skin covered brick. She is still training and competing as far as I know. Has something like 13 World Championships to her credit.

[Michael Hartman]

Yep, that is who I was thinking of...she probably had the strongest hips and back of any female lifter ever in her weight class regardless of organization. It is a shame she did not find Olympic Weightlifting earlier in her career, or in reality, it is a shame Olympic Weightlifting (USAW) did not find her.

[oldgit]

all westside lifters are juiced up and wear ridiculous support gear-raw they cant squat 80% of their assisted lifts-and i wont even bother commenting about the depth of the squats-or should i say half-squats!! complete joke!