Similar to Christine's - Problem keeping knuckles pointing toward the floor

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Reading Christine's plight about keeping a good arch on her back made me realize I should post a similar but different sort of thread.

I've read several times, from various sources, that, ideally, you should point your knuckles toward the floor before you pull and hold that position until you complete the second pull. As a result, the forearms, sort of, contract or become activated as though you're doing a wrist curl with a barbell behind your back.

I have from years of pulling allowed my grip to become very relaxed. I have large hands and when I do deadlifts I simply allow the bar to "feel natural" in my hand. In doing so, my knuckles are always higher than the first digit on my fingers - I feel nothing in my forearms when I pull. In pulling this way, my cervical and part of my thorasic spine relaxs a bit - and I've gotten a bit of "rounded" upper back when I pull. Lumbar is erect and arched. Mid back is taut. But upper back is somewhat rounded as the chest is not always out as it should be with a proper "clean pull."

Since I am completely revamping my lifting (and my chopping/sawing) at this point in my recovery from knee surgery, yesterday I did some light clean pulls (120kg) and really focused on pointing my knuckles toward the ground and contracting my forearms as though I were doing a wrist curl behind my back - hitting the extensors I believe.

This caused me to notice a few things:
1) My chest and upper back finally felt in the right position.
2) The bar didn't brush me until mid thighs (a bloody first for me).
3) My long ass ape arms stayed sorta bent throughout the pull - but never wavered from that position.

Question - is what I am attempting to do remotely right? I've got no clue. It seriously fatigues my forearms and I think that's a good thing. I think I may be onto something I've missed thus far in my 2 years of playing with the OLY movements.

I truly felt that doing this wrist curl put me in a better body position throughout the pull. I could be completely wrong. And yesterday happened to be on of those days I trained at the Y and did not have my camera. That's the reason I'm asking the group. I want to re-do and get rid of bad habits while I can only play with weights that my therapist and D.O. approve.

Thanks in advance.

All the best,
Arden

[NickHorton]

You know, I've never thought about the Knuckles. But, I figure I'm always up to try new things. So, I'll play with that tonight, and see if I notice anything.

[Brian DeGennaro]

Do you have a video, Arden?

[glennpendlay]

Many coaches teach to "curl" the forearm toward the body when pulling... I have always thought that simply pushing the bar back into the body accomplished the same goal... But if this helps you, then great!

[COACHMCCAULEY]

Arden,

I teach lifters to have the knuckles (fist) pointing at the floor so that there is no angle at the wrist to cause the lifter to be jarred when he/she drives the bar from the floor.

Someone above talked about using a slight curling of the wrists at the start. I have had one lifter who did this to some extent and was successful but in most, I think it causes too much arm tension and, thus, early involvement.

I am a firm believer in getting the hook grip set and using the arms only as a pendulum arm hanging down from the shoulder and moving the bar inward from its starting position during the first pull(drive). Active arm involvement during the pull-under is bestinitiated by most when their arms are relaxed, as just before a punch.

Good luck with rebuilding your lift.

[NickHorton]

You know, I've never thought about the Knuckles. But, I figure I'm always up to try new things. So, I'll play with that tonight, and see if I notice anything.

OK, I went to the gym last night, and played around with this knuckles pointing down business. On first blush, I'm not into it.

On a positive note, even though pointing the knuckles down seems to cause the lower arm to do the same thing as a wrist curl, it did feel different psychologically when consciously attempting to point downward with the knuckles.

Curling up with the wrist seems to me to tell your brain to move the bar up with the arms - which would be bad. But, pointing with the knuckles, at least theoretically, might do the opposite. Pointing implies a lengthening of the arms. Who knows, there may be lifters who are constantly over-pulling with the arms who could benefit from the "knuckles down" cue?

Still, though, it felt weird. I have always felt better teaching new lifters to keep their arms hanging like ropes attached to the bar. After what Glenn and Don said, I'll likely stick to my original method.

That said, I'm always up for trying new things to see if they can be of use.

[Alan K CF Triumph]

I see no mention of what your shoulders are doing.

Pull your shoulders back at address.

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Many coaches teach to "curl" the forearm toward the body when pulling... I have always thought that simply pushing the bar back into the body accomplished the same goal... But if this helps you, then great!

So many years of deadlifting has lead to me relaxing my upper back. I've found that with curling the bar/knuckles down, it forces me to
1) push the bar back;
2) keep my upper back taut;

Again, I'm taking this slow and controlled. I did some box power snatches today and tried to do some light snatch pulls. I felt crappy off the floor, but good once I got above the knee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW3eYRta0N4

I also feel this will be easier for me in the cleans than in the snatch because of body position. But I'm still learning.

All the best,
Arden

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Arden,

I teach lifters to have the knuckles (fist) pointing at the floor so that there is no angle at the wrist to cause the lifter to be jarred when he/she drives the bar from the floor.

Someone above talked about using a slight curling of the wrists at the start. I have had one lifter who did this to some extent and was successful but in most, I think it causes too much arm tension and, thus, early involvement.

I am a firm believer in getting the hook grip set and using the arms only as a pendulum arm hanging down from the shoulder and moving the bar inward from its starting position during the first pull(drive). Active arm involvement during the pull-under is bestinitiated by most when their arms are relaxed, as just before a punch.

Good luck with rebuilding your lift.

Thanks Coach.

I'm going to work really hard on moving the bar inward. That's something I forget all the time with the snatch moreso than the clean.

Sincerely appreciated.

All the best,
Arden

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

OK, I went to the gym last night, and played around with this knuckles pointing down business. On first blush, I'm not into it.

On a positive note, even though pointing the knuckles down seems to cause the lower arm to do the same thing as a wrist curl, it did feel different psychologically when consciously attempting to point downward with the knuckles.

Curling up with the wrist seems to me to tell your brain to move the bar up with the arms - which would be bad. But, pointing with the knuckles, at least theoretically, might do the opposite. Pointing implies a lengthening of the arms. Who knows, there may be lifters who are constantly over-pulling with the arms who could benefit from the "knuckles down" cue?

Still, though, it felt weird. I have always felt better teaching new lifters to keep their arms hanging like ropes attached to the bar. After what Glenn and Don said, I'll likely stick to my original method.

That said, I'm always up for trying new things to see if they can be of use.

thanks for the observations Nick. Meant alot that you would try it. I'm pretty much clueless and a man on a island where I train. So all input is sincerely appreciated.

I muscle/power snatched this morning and it felt very good. I'm not moving my feet yet because I have to limit the dynamnic nature of the movement for a few more weeks. At this point, I'm 27 days post knee surgery and pleased to be moving without pain. Actually the knee has felt better the past week than it did the past year. Moreover, I can finally straighten the darn thing for the first time in 4 years. I'm sincerely relearning how to walk again - my gait has changed a lot. In any event, the point is I'll keep plugging along and really try to activate and pull the bar into my body on that first pull and not so much curling the bar as I described above.

I think that would be better.

All the best,
Arden

[Brian DeGennaro]

Your lifts look awesome for 4 weeks post surgery and the best I've ever seen too. I would suggest trying to catch the weight quicker but that's probably you being hesitant with the knee more than anything else.

Re: back and how you do tend to relax it, I would think about trying to get as big as you could (like expanding the chest and spreading scap kind of big), and see if that helps create some tension in your upper back. If not, you're gonna have to settle lifting like Blagoev.

[glennpendlay]

I'll settle for lifting like Blagoev.

[Brian DeGennaro]

It's not necessarily a bad thing, I mean a 196 snatch at <90. I don't care what you say about the system that was up at the time, that's an enormous weight.

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

I'd settle for lifting about 60% of Blagoev. :D

Day by day, the knee is getting better. Tomorrow i'm doing box power cleans. Keeping it light. Will do some pulls from the floor and work hard on pushing the bar back.

Thanks for everything.

All the best,
Arden

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Okay, again, I'm limited in that I cannot do full movements because I'm not quite 5 weeks out from knee surgery. But I'm working on pointing my knuckles down and trying to get my upper back tight. These cleans are more muscle cleans than anything, but they are a start. I think?

comments are completely welcome. I doubt I'll be able to resume full squat cleans for another 4 to 6 weeks. But I hope to start moving my feet within 2 to 4 weeks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXqADycbsXw

All the best,
Arden

[Brian DeGennaro]

Arden, since you've brought the knuckle thing back to the forefront of my mind I've paid attention to what I do and what other lifters are doing with their knuckles. What I have noticed is that when you internally rotate the humerus more, you get that knuckles down position more effectively than activating the flexors.

But regarding technique on cleans, not bad, positions are good, and I don't know if it is because of the surgery or not, but try to think about exploding "underneath" the barbell, if you know what I mean.

[Christine Petty]

I've been using Arden's tip, I have noticed it helps.

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Arden, since you've brought the knuckle thing back to the forefront of my mind I've paid attention to what I do and what other lifters are doing with their knuckles. What I have noticed is that when you internally rotate the humerus more, you get that knuckles down position more effectively than activating the flexors.

But regarding technique on cleans, not bad, positions are good, and I don't know if it is because of the surgery or not, but try to think about exploding "underneath" the barbell, if you know what I mean.

Brian,
Very good point. This morning, I focused on turning my elbows out - rotating the humerous more - which put my knuckle in that position a lot more naturally. I then, curled it less and seemed to get a good result.

One step at a time. One step at at ime.

Oh, and exploding underneath is the damn disconnect I've been having for a long time. With this totally relearning the movements since the surgery, I hope I can master that "pop and drop" part of things. Right now, I'm doing power movements on purpose. I'll start moving my feet next week. Then lower then weights and start the drop part of the movements once I feel comfortable getting under the bar. If that makes any sense?

My goal is to squat 145 comfortably by the end of next month. For me comfortably is a matter of it feeling like 60. When I get to that point, I know I can put 230 on my back and bang out a pretty quick set of 5. I get there, then I'll start clearning over 100 and snatching over 75.

All the best,
Arden

[Brian DeGennaro]

Cool, glad it wasn't just I who thought that about the arms. I understand it's hard after the surgery, I figured that's what was going on anyways. Even with the power variation just keep the idea of catching it ASAP as well. These lifts still look the best I've ever seen so that's a +.

Good luck on the recovery, you're coming back nice and well.

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Brian,
Today, I thought about catching the bar sooner. I know I'm still pulling way too high, but I'm doing that on purpose. I'm hoping, god and ortho willing, that I get released next week so I can resume some light full lifts. But was today any better on "catching it asap."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bly-KLu6n_0

Thanks so much for your input.

All the best,
Arden