Training for the Supertotal

[glennpendlay]

I have had a number of inquiries about how I would train an athlete who wanted to compete in both Olympic weightlifting and Powerlifting. This is an article outlining how I would train such a person.

http://www.pendlay.com/Training-for-the-Supertotal_df_51.html

[StLRPh]

Thanks for this :)

[NickHorton]

Nice article Glenn,

I have a feeling that as weightlifting keeps increasing in popularity, chasing the super total will be a goal of many recreational lifters. Good stuff.

[glennpendlay]

you would have to be a pretty good strength athlete to do well in all 5 lifts.

Of course, I think a contest consisting of a clean, a press, and a squat would be pretty good for identifying a good "all around strong" man or woman.

And, I like the Tactical Strength Challenge... which is a max deadlift, pullups for max reps, and as many kettlebell snatches as you can do in 5 minutes... the idea being to test limit strength, strength relative to bodyweight, and muscular endurance.

[NickHorton]

We could call the "clean, press, and squat" contest the Paul Anderson.

As for the Tactical, I'm fine with the deadlift and chins. But, muscular endurance is certainly not my thing. You should see me trying to hike ... it's pathetic.

[oldgit]

glenn pendlay of course knows a milliom more times about wlifting than me-i 100% accept that fact-but! omg-i feel for the average lifter-not a world class lifter in either sport-that 4 times a week hammering the shoulders through either c&j or benching will lead to problems! maybe elite lifters with optimum nutrition and ems and the like and no job can recover-but us mere mortals-no way!! in fatc nobody does both comps at world level with success-so it shows maybe impossible to be world class at both sports! plenty of guys though in masters lifting who do both-cos they scale down amount of lifitng and protect shoulders by doing only 1x bench and c&j a week!

[Tommy Sittinger]

glenn pendlay of course knows a milliom more times about wlifting than me-i 100% accept that fact-but! omg-i feel for the average lifter-not a world class lifter in either sport-that 4 times a week hammering the shoulders through either c&j or benching will lead to problems! maybe elite lifters with optimum nutrition and ems and the like and no job can recover-but us mere mortals-no way!! in fatc nobody does both comps at world level with success-so it shows maybe impossible to be world class at both sports! plenty of guys though in masters lifting who do both-cos they scale down amount of lifitng and protect shoulders by doing only 1x bench and c&j a week!

I read it here somewhere, or maybe in an article related to this forum, that a strong push press transfers to the bench. Maybe just do push presses, pushup variations leading up to one arm pushups, and trade bench for something else that hammers the shoulders as a meet approaches?

No one can expect to break any records in any particular lift if you're chasing a supertotal. It's the total of the five lifts in general that you're looking to set a record in, I would think. It's like the crossfit mentality - be above average in a lot of things, but not necessarily elite in any one discipline.

Edit: Found it!

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/too_much_muscle_the_glenn_pendlay_secret

On page two Coach Pendlay talks about the push press and the carry over to the bench, but not vice versa.

[glennpendlay]

glenn pendlay of course knows a milliom more times about wlifting than me-i 100% accept that fact-but! omg-i feel for the average lifter-not a world class lifter in either sport-that 4 times a week hammering the shoulders through either c&j or benching will lead to problems! maybe elite lifters with optimum nutrition and ems and the like and no job can recover-but us mere mortals-no way!! in fatc nobody does both comps at world level with success-so it shows maybe impossible to be world class at both sports! plenty of guys though in masters lifting who do both-cos they scale down amount of lifitng and protect shoulders by doing only 1x bench and c&j a week!

There is no way you are gonna be world class at everything, and I am not making that claim. But I do think that this is a good "all around" program. If you thinnk it would be too much for your shoulders, simply drop some of the shoulder girdle work... I would suggest leaving the push presses in though... :)

[Carl Johnson]

Ok, I'm in! A Supertotal sounds like a fun goal. I've never done a powerlifting meet so this will be a nice challenge. Here is my goal.
Powerlifting Raw meet this summer most likely July.
Squat 200 kg
Bench 125 kg
Deadlift 220 kg
Total=545

Weightlifting Summer meet
Snatch 100 kg
C+J 125 kg
Total 225kg

I'll start a training log today!

[glennpendlay]

Ok, I'm in! A Supertotal sounds like a fun goal. I've never done a powerlifting meet so this will be a nice challenge. Here is my goal.
Powerlifting Raw meet this summer most likely July.
Squat 200 kg
Bench 125 kg
Deadlift 220 kg
Total=545

Weightlifting Summer meet
Snatch 100 kg
C+J 125 kg
Total 225kg

I'll start a training log today!

Admirable goals, I will be interested in following your log and seeing how it goes... are you going to be following the training outline I offered, or using your own plan?

[Carl Johnson]

Admirable goals, I will be interested in following your log and seeing how it goes... are you going to be following the training outline I offered, or using your own plan?

I don't know if it's admirable, kind of weak sauce in my mind but goals are goals. We have a plan, it's very similar to what you outlined.
Monday Snatch/Back Squat

Tuesday Power Clean + Push Press or P. Jerk

Wednesday Bench, Chins, Accessory stuff

Thursday Kettlebells and Power Snatch

Fridays Clean and Jerk/ Deadlift

Every Third week No Friday lift but Saturday Mock Comp

[jkl]

Hello.

I'm doing this program as well, with added close grip bench and rows (+ chins and pullups each training day), only problem is non specific (right) knee pain (not PFPS, more of tendinosis near kneecap? Kneecap maltracking? Chronic overuse?), and I cut on squats some days (usually front), which is hurting my feelings, but what can I do?

Fish oil I guess, NSAIDs only aggravate it.

It's not like this program started problems with knee.

[Carl Johnson]

I have same issues with right knee too:mad:, Gua Sha, lot's of rolling on PVC pipes. Also, ice cup massage where you wipe the water away so it gets colder quicker seems to help. Some days are better than others. I have to really be careful about how often I go low in the catch. You really have to be conscious of how it feels. Good luck.

[Clarence]

Glenn, I'm keen to give this program a go as designed. I was wondering if I could get a bit more direction on proposed sets and reps. Also how would you suggest programming the weight progression

Since my weightlifting technique is poor I was thinking about doing a few light snatch and C&J as warm up on days that are dedicated to the slow lifts.

I'm 33yo 83kg and consider myself an intermediate in terms of training, beginner with olympic lifts.

Some current stats:
backsquat 175kg
frontsquat 140
deadlift 200
bench press 150 (yes, i'm top heavy)
c&J 110
snatch 87.5

[glennpendlay]

Clarence, give me a quick rundown on your training history and what you are doing now, and I will try to point you in the right general direction...

[Clarence]

Thanks Glenn. Been training since I was a teenager, mostly just the generic bodybuilding type stuff. Unfortunately, I was never very consistent with lower body training so it always lagged behind.

Few years ago I stumbled onto crossfit, then crossfit football (which I much preferred). Last year I did 6 months of 5/3/1. Earlier this year I did smolov (+30kg).

Last couple months has lacked direction. Mainly just trying to teach myself the olympic lifts, squatting few times per week, and occassionally some pressing.

My goal at the moment is just to improve my relative strength and get half decent at the olympic lifts. Have never competed in powerlifting or weightlifting but I think some local open meets will be on the cards at some point.

[Carl Johnson]

Also, while we are on the supertotal topic. What would be the best formula for comparing bodyweight classes. Speaking of that what weight classes should there be any or straight bodyweight. I ask because my buddy in Wisconsin may hold a little supertotal contest at his gym in July.

[Clarence]

Also, while we are on the supertotal topic. What would be the best formula for comparing bodyweight classes. Speaking of that what weight classes should there be any or straight bodyweight. I ask because my buddy in Wisconsin may hold a little supertotal contest at his gym in July.

If it's just competing with a buddy then I'd keep things simple...just ignore weight class and go by the 5 lift total. And after you've had you're first competition with him then just go by total improvement in future comps.

[Clarence]

Glenn, have you had a chance to give any thought to the rep/set system for this program? Don't mean to be pushy, I know you're a busy dude, but I'm eager to get started.

[glennpendlay]

Glenn, have you had a chance to give any thought to the rep/set system for this program? Don't mean to be pushy, I know you're a busy dude, but I'm eager to get started.

I will get to it tomorrow Clarence... sorry, 2 brand new lifters arrived here within the last 3 days, plus my computer went down, so I am struggling, but I will get to this I promise

[Clarence]

Hi Glenn, thought I'd bump this up.

[jkl]

Also, while we are on the supertotal topic. What would be the best formula for comparing bodyweight classes. Speaking of that what weight classes should there be any or straight bodyweight. I ask because my buddy in Wisconsin may hold a little supertotal contest at his gym in July.

I would go with straight Wilks formula for total, it's reasonably fair.

Found this pic the other day. Anyone have an updated one?

Only something like this:

http://dziepak.110mb.com/training/supert.htm

[Carl Johnson]

Thanks for that link, those numbers are ridiculous.

[jkl]

In good or bad way? From my point of view they're mess, missing commas, non verifiable etc.

400 Wilks / 330 Sinclair would be balanced ratio for men imho.

[Manuel B]

Cool video on some lifters competing for a supertotal: <iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fcA0_Uc2qN0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Carl Johnson]

that's awesome, have you thought about having a supertotal competition at ssps? That would kind of bring together both sports that you guys coach.

[Carl Johnson]

Another supertotal meet, although not the same kind of intensity as the previous;)

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/cdkxr_v_tiA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Manuel B]

that's awesome, have you thought about having a supertotal competition at ssps? That would kind of bring together both sports that you guys coach.

Thought about it but it would be pretty one sided in terms of who shows up. Most of the PLers havent put the time into learning to snatch and CJ so they probably wouldnt enter or risk injury before upcoming meets. So youd end up with OLers who just want to do more lifts and maybe some XF people. That might be sufficient but it would be nice to get some PLers involved as well.

[TxDieselKid]

Here's how I set it up using Glenn's general template and recommendations in the article. Rep schemes and percentages are the same for that day for both lifts just to keep it easy. I might adjust it after Greg posts his thoughts on percentages for his program or the feed back I get here. No real speed day like I am use to doing, but more total volume than I'm use to. I've had great luck in 5-10 reps above 90% to build strength, so that's where you see some of the thought process below.

Week 1 & 2:
Monday:
Front Squat: 5(sets) x 1(rep) >90+% (Start at 90% & increase as you see fit), 1x4+ 85%
Incline: 5x1 >90% (again, increase the weight each rep depending on how you feel), 1x4+ 85%

Wed:
Every Minute on the Minute:
Snatch: 5x1 75% (5 minutes), 5x1 80% (5 minutes), 5x1 85% (5 minutes)
10 minutes rest then:
C&J: 5x1 75% (5 minutes), 5x1 80% (5 minutes), 5x1 85% (5 minutes)

Thurs:
B Squat: 2x2 85%, 3x2 90%, 1xFail 75%
Straight Press: 2x2 85%, 3x2 90%, 1xFail 75%

Sat:
Snatch: 2x1 90%, 3x1 95+% (increase as you see fit), 2x2 85%
C&J: 2x1 90%, 3x1 95+% (increase as you see fit), 2x2 85%

Week 3 is a straight oly week. I need more strength in those numbers since my percentages are a little low compared to my slow lifts. I need to focus on them for a week every 2 weeks until they are up to a more acceptable level (hence why I lead off with the front squat the first 2 weeks). Also I think it's just good to work technique still at my level. I've been doing the oly lifts for a year now and this will be my first venture back into the slow lifts. I will take one day and make the deadlift the main lift just to get some time with that move in.

Week 4 & 5
Monday:
Back Squat: 2x1 90%, 3x1 95+% (increase as you see fit), 1x5 85%
Bench: 2x1 90%, 3x1 95+% (increase as you see fit), 1x5 85%

Wed:
Same as week 1 & 2

Thursday:
F Squat: 2x2 85%, 3x2 90%, 1x5 75%
Behind the Neck Snatch Grip Press: 2x2 85%, 3x2 90%, 1x5 75%
(the BTNSGP is my new favorite toy. If there's no dip/drive it is extremely hard and my training partner who can clean 380+lbs can't even do 145lb without a bit of a jerk)

Sat:
Same as week 1 & 2

Week 6 is back to all oly lifts.

I plan to start this program shortly after making a few more tweaks to it here and there. The Wednesdays I think will be the first thing to change. That's kind of a bastardized day, not heavy enough to build strength, but too heavy to be a speed day. It builds good volume compared to what I have been doing so that's why I have it set up that way.

There's also some assistance work in there 2-3 days per week.

If anyone has any thoughts on it I would love to read them. :)

[mjmawson]

I know I'm dragging this thread back from the brink here, but I'd like a little advice. I've just started learning the olympic lifts and the supertotal program seems like the right thing for me at this time, but I can't lift over the weekend. Should I just push the Saturday workout to Friday and accept that I won't be able to go as heavy (this may not be an issue as I'm still limited by technique at the moment)? I've seen Rippetoe advocate using a Texas method-type setup with the olympic lifts on the rest days, would this be a better alternative as I'd get more time to recover from Monday's volume before I squat heavy again?

[glennpendlay]

I know I'm dragging this thread back from the brink here, but I'd like a little advice. I've just started learning the olympic lifts and the supertotal program seems like the right thing for me at this time, but I can't lift over the weekend. Should I just push the Saturday workout to Friday and accept that I won't be able to go as heavy (this may not be an issue as I'm still limited by technique at the moment)? I've seen Rippetoe advocate using a Texas method-type setup with the olympic lifts on the rest days, would this be a better alternative as I'd get more time to recover from Monday's volume before I squat heavy again?

I would say both would work. The setup that you credit to Rip came from Mike Stone, then thru Lon Kilgore, to me. I used it in somewhat modified form (more of the competitive Olympic lifts, less pulls) with the Wichita Falls weightlifting team, and that is where Rip first saw it. It was, and is, a great way to build all-around strength but still get the practice neccessary to perform adequately on the snatch and clean and jerk. It is not suitable for use by an OL athlete year round, though, because there is not really enough specialization on the competitive lifts, IMO at least. But it is a great way to build supertotal strength. It is, BTW, very similar in setup to the program that LSU shreveport and lifters such as Kendrick Farris use today, except that in that case the program passed from Mike Stone to Kyle Pierce, and is used much closer to its original form.

[HunterHenzler]

Just out of curiosity, what is a "good" supertotal?
I use to PL, so I still love it, but oly lifting is my passion now.
The only thing I have to say is a supertotal meet would probably be EXHAUSTING!
I know by the final DL in just a PL meet you're normally getting pretty fatigued, and combining the snatch and c&j with that would definately require a down week of recovery haha.

[glennpendlay]

There is a list that was in Powerlifting USA a few years back of the top supertotals, I am pretty sure Mark Henry was tops by a wide margin. I have not seen any updated compilations since then. But Mark would be hard to beat. 900lb + deadlift, 900lb + squat, snatch close to 400lbs, clean and jerk close to 500lbs. Thats about 2700 without the bench, and I am sure adding the bench would put him well over 3000lbs.

And yes I know that in the past few years the world record total for powerlifting has gotten to 3000lbs (this "barrier" first broken by Donny Thompson) but, the use of gear and the amount it is currently adding make this sort of lifting a whole different animal, and I dont think you can realistically use those numbers in any sort of comparison of the supertotal.

[HunterHenzler]

Glenn- so this would be talking with an entirely "raw" powerlifts?

[glennpendlay]

no, I would not say entirely raw only, although I think all Mark Henrys lifts were done raw. Its just that in todays powerlifting world, wearing gear is not like it was in 1990 or even 2000, where a single ply suit made you lift more but your lifts were still highly related to what you could do without them. In todays world of guys who might not be able squat 800 raw racking up 1300lb halfsquats with triple canvas, 2.5 meter knee wraps, etc, what one does in a meet has lost all relationship to what they could actually do raw. Its just hard to know how to relate competition lifts to how strong the person really is.

[joann.jimi]

They post a new workout everyday, and they combine olympic weight lifting, endurance running, gymnastics, swimming, kettlebells, and fight training.

[GuinnessStrong]

I posted this originally over on bb.com and was referred here for possible better answers...

Know ahead of time that this isn't to make any major gains but rather to reprogram my lifts after the nerve damage from my injury. I plan to go back to real programs as soon as I'm capable.

Taking cues from Pendlay's Supertotal article (found here: http://www.pendlay.com/Training-for-the-Supertotal_df_89.html), I'm trying to write a program which will include all 5 major lifts (snatch, clean and jerk, bench, deadlift, and back squat). The percentages are going to look high but that's because all my lifts are very low at the moment (115, 185, 315, 425, 405 @ 173). The muscles in my right leg don't work as they used to because a ****ing rock fell on me and the resulting swelling killed a lot of tissue including some nerves. I can just now fire all the muscles again fully but they are dumb to most basic compound motions. For example, I go to push press or split jerk and my leg goes out from under me for just an instant. Having to forcibly correct my posture then pretty much kills the lift. Essentially as of now all of my lifts but bench and back squat are sloppy, and my squat's no where near where it was even after a lot of effort (Bulgarian'd the **** out of it as soon as I could get under a bar again). I don't want to neglect anything but at the same time I want it bare-bones and simple. I figure I'll take a month just to work hard on form and coordination then move back into a program to make what matters stronger (probably toss bench and stress overhead / deadlift).

tl;dr nerve damage in leg -> need to practice form a lot -> wrote a Supertotal program

Here's what I have so far...

http://i45.tinypic.com/2vbs8xk.jpg

Thoughts?

Also, I'd like to add in weighted chins / dips, too, but I don't know where they'd go best. I think the chins would go well on the push press day. Dips... any ideas? I don't even think they're necessary outside of helping bench so maybe I'll just clip 'em.

I've already heard that the %'s I've included are probably much too high for the heavier days. What progression would one want for heavy work? 65% and rising?

Also Q to Glenn himself: Is there anything you would change in your current recommendations compared to what's written in the 2010 article?

[jkl]

Just out of curiosity, what is a "good" supertotal?

I don't know, but comparing various statistics, standards and totals for classes, in powerlifting and weightlifting

I came with following equation-

400 Wilks ~ 333.(3) Sinclair points (1:1.2 ratio)

as "in to get 333 Sinclair points you most probably need squat that if it's in proportion to other two powerlifts, will give you also about 400 Wilks points raw powerlifting total" (*).

For females equation is roughly-

400 Wilks ~ 213.(3) Sinclair points. (1:1.875 ratio)

That's just my opinion.

From this you can extrapolate actual supertotal numbers.

(*) Unless you are exceptionally fast, agile, fat, slow, squat mile high, try to clean pull your max deadlift or whatever.

[Allan]

I posted this originally over on bb.com and was referred here for possible better answers...


I've already heard that the %'s I've included are probably much too high for the heavier days. What progression would one want for heavy work? 65% and rising?

Also Q to Glenn himself: Is there anything you would change in your current recommendations compared to what's written in the 2010 article?

Seems like a simple and good program. Isn´t the light tuesday-work too light though?

[GuinnessStrong]

Seems like a simple and good program. Isn´t the light tuesday-work too light though?

I don't think it's too light for the goal because it's the absolute lowest % one gets optimal power adaptations out of, but I don't know if it's too light for this type of program as I'm just going off of "light"/"moderate"/"heavy" and "low"/"high" volume standards from the article. I'd love to know what numbers actually meet these criteria to enhance what I've got so far though.

[slowjoe]

There is a list that was in Powerlifting USA a few years back of the top supertotals, I am pretty sure Mark Henry was tops by a wide margin. I have not seen any updated compilations since then. But Mark would be hard to beat. 900lb + deadlift, 900lb + squat, snatch close to 400lbs, clean and jerk close to 500lbs. Thats about 2700 without the bench, and I am sure adding the bench would put him well over 3000lbs.

And yes I know that in the past few years the world record total for powerlifting has gotten to 3000lbs (this "barrier" first broken by Donny Thompson) but, the use of gear and the amount it is currently adding make this sort of lifting a whole different animal, and I dont think you can realistically use those numbers in any sort of comparison of the supertotal.

I would have thought Shane Hamman would at least make the top five. ICBW.

[Allan]

Here's how I set it up using Glenn's general template and recommendations in the article. Rep schemes and percentages are the same for that day for both lifts just to keep it easy. I might adjust it after Greg posts his thoughts on percentages for his program or the feed back I get here. No real speed day like I am use to doing, but more total volume than I'm use to. I've had great luck in 5-10 reps above 90% to build strength, so that's where you see some of the thought process below.

Week 1 & 2:
Monday:
Front Squat: 5(sets) x 1(rep) >90+% (Start at 90% & increase as you see fit), 1x4+ 85%
Incline: 5x1 >90% (again, increase the weight each rep depending on how you feel), 1x4+ 85%

Wed:
Every Minute on the Minute:
Snatch: 5x1 75% (5 minutes), 5x1 80% (5 minutes), 5x1 85% (5 minutes)
10 minutes rest then:
C&J: 5x1 75% (5 minutes), 5x1 80% (5 minutes), 5x1 85% (5 minutes)

Thurs:
B Squat: 2x2 85%, 3x2 90%, 1xFail 75%
Straight Press: 2x2 85%, 3x2 90%, 1xFail 75%

Sat:
Snatch: 2x1 90%, 3x1 95+% (increase as you see fit), 2x2 85%
C&J: 2x1 90%, 3x1 95+% (increase as you see fit), 2x2 85%

Week 3 is a straight oly week. I need more strength in those numbers since my percentages are a little low compared to my slow lifts. I need to focus on them for a week every 2 weeks until they are up to a more acceptable level (hence why I lead off with the front squat the first 2 weeks). Also I think it's just good to work technique still at my level. I've been doing the oly lifts for a year now and this will be my first venture back into the slow lifts. I will take one day and make the deadlift the main lift just to get some time with that move in.

Week 4 & 5
Monday:
Back Squat: 2x1 90%, 3x1 95+% (increase as you see fit), 1x5 85%
Bench: 2x1 90%, 3x1 95+% (increase as you see fit), 1x5 85%

Wed:
Same as week 1 & 2

Thursday:
F Squat: 2x2 85%, 3x2 90%, 1x5 75%
Behind the Neck Snatch Grip Press: 2x2 85%, 3x2 90%, 1x5 75%
(the BTNSGP is my new favorite toy. If there's no dip/drive it is extremely hard and my training partner who can clean 380+lbs can't even do 145lb without a bit of a jerk)

Sat:
Same as week 1 & 2

Week 6 is back to all oly lifts.

I plan to start this program shortly after making a few more tweaks to it here and there. The Wednesdays I think will be the first thing to change. That's kind of a bastardized day, not heavy enough to build strength, but too heavy to be a speed day. It builds good volume compared to what I have been doing so that's why I have it set up that way.

There's also some assistance work in there 2-3 days per week.

If anyone has any thoughts on it I would love to read them. :)

I will definetly try this one for the snatch and C&Js. With a years perspective, how has it worked?

[The Jerk]

I love the concept of combining powerlifting and olympic lifting together, and the program looks excellent. Definitely something I will start running. I have my wonders about assistance work though. After the C+J and Snatch days, what are some good lifts to do, and on the strength days, after the two main lifts, what accessories would be recommended? And would following a 5/3/1 scheme for the strength days' lifts work well?

Thanks

[Einherjar]

I started using Glenn's template for the Super Total (plus overhead press) a couple of months ago. I really like the Olympic lifts, but I cannot seem to leave the power lifts behind (or the overhead press).

After a couple of months running the program and having done a bit of research, I've decided to use the template adopting a weekly undulating periodised approach for the all the lifts. From what I've read, undulating periodisation is good for the power lifts, but nothing much has been done on the Olympic lifts (programming for Oly lifting escapes me at the moment, but I'm sure there must be some merit to mixing up levels of intensity, if only for recovery purposes). So I'm thinking that maybe undulating between intensities and using Prilepin's table as some kind of guide will work.

So for the power lifts I will be undulating - not linear progression - between three set and rep schemes, 4x8 @ 75% (Hypertrophy / Strength), 5x5 @ 85% (Strength / Hypertrophy) and 3x3 (Strength). For the olympic lifts I will do 6x3 at 75% (Light), 6x2 @ 85% (Medium), and 2x2 @ 95% (Heavy).

Adopting Glenn's template, and because there are three variations, this leads to a micro cycle lasting three weeks. In this three weeks the squat, front squat, overhead press and bench are each completed once at all levels of intensity. If the Olympic lifts are done as complete lifts (well kind of, with the clean and jerk trained separately, on the assumption a max clean and a max jerk are not the same) then the Olympic lifts are completed twice at each level of intensity. If the Olympic lifts are only complete once fully and variations are used for the second time the lift is completed in the week, then they are completed once). Once a microcycle is a complete, weight can be added according to performance. And the sets / reps can be changed too.

The programming is meant to have an instinctive element for daily fluctuations in performance. So on a bad day less sets may be in order, on a good day maybe more. However, I'm thinking tweaks on a good day should fulfil the aim of the day; so if it's geared towards intensity ramp up weight rather than sets, and if the goal is lighter (olympic) consider moving on or (power) add more sets.

Assistance varies.

That's where I am up to with it. Just about to start testing...

[The Jerk]

For assistance I was thinking of throwing some Glute-Hams, Chins, Goodmornings, and Triceps on the strength based days.

As for the weightlifting days, I'm not sure what, if any assistance to plug in.

Here's a rough template of what I'm thinking so far.

Monday
Squat 5/3/1
Overhead Press 5/3/1
-Chin ups 50 reps
-Goodmorning 5x10

Tuesday (Light)
Snatch 12x1
Clean and Jerk 10x1
-?
-?

Thursday
Front Squat 5/3/1
Push Press 5/3/1
- JM Press 4x6-8
- Glute Ham Raises 5x10

Saturday (Heavy)
Snatch 10x1
Clean and Jerk 8x1
(Bi-weekly deadlifts)
-?
-?

I have the military press rather than the bench in there because I probably won't compete for a while and I feel it is a more useful lift in general. When my military goes up my bench does too, and the inverse is not true so it would still be building my bench somewhat anyway. If I do decide to compete, I will simply swap the bench in for the military.

Basically just wondering if that is too much assistance, and what changes you would recommend I make to it. I know it's not an exact science, but I would like something decent to work with.

Also, I am a beginner to the olympic lifts, I am going to practice them all summer long, and begin this kind of training in the fall of next year - just wondering what kind of loading would be good for a beginner weightlifter.

Lastly, I'm wondering about conditioning in this program, i.e, would plugging in a day or two of hill sprints per week be good? I'd like to keep at least decent condition through this.

Thanks a lot guys.

[Einherjar]

I ran both squats (HBBS and FS), bench and overhead press on 5/3/1 for two three week cycles and don't think it worked out very well. It may for you, but that was my experience. I'm not convinced that 5/3/1 works very well in terms of variety between volume and intensity to elicit the best training adaption.

I think assistance is best kept to assistance that's going to have a direct benefit. Better that and work on improving the main lifts. So either targeted towards minimising weaknesses, or to help avoid potential injury.

Monday's I do chin ups and dips.
On Oly days I tend to do back extensions and GHRs.
On Thursdays I do whatever, maybe some isometric stuff (reverse lunges, kettlebell presses), and band pull aparts / face pulls.

I think 5x10 is unnecessary too - looks like you're taking Wendler's philosophy on lots of sets for assistance and dragging it across. After sticking my head in as many books as I can get my hands on to determine sets and reps ranges for various exercises, I cannot see any real benefit to doing 5 sets of 10 for everything always.

When I was just starting out learning the lifts I found singles and setting up afresh for each one helpful, but by the same token I found it was better to keep the weights lighter to get form nailed. Consistently good (well passable) form for me turned out to be the best option. Then adding weight incrementally each session. The weights you will be handling to begin with will *probably* be light enough that you won't really need to worry too much about cycling between light and heavy. Just focus on doing the lifts well. It's taken me five months of doing the Olys before I've had to start worrying about training intensity (I did them solidly for about 3/4 months).

I think there is definitely a place for doubles and triples too. Watched one of Glenn's MDUSA vids a while back with Don commenting too, and both said - if I remember correctly - that triples build strength in the classic lifts.

[The Jerk]

Thanks for the reply.

5/3/1 may work, may not. I will give it a run and see, I am young enough in my training career that most things done consistently will work anyway. I just like the fact that 5/3/1 allows for monthly loading and progress. If that doesn't work, or when it stops working, I may switch to something like week 1 3x3, week 2, 5x3, week 3 6x1. That's not my main concern anyway because like I said, at this point, most things are going to work for me.

Now on to assistance work, dips and chins on monday sounds good, or just any solid compound pull / push really.

Some posterior chain on the Oly days i.e GHR and Back Extensions looks fine as well. And for Thursdays, I'll probably do some upper back stuff, maybe some abs.

As far as sets/reps go for the assistance, what do you think would be better, or do you treat that as an autoregulatory thing, just kinda feeling how much to do each day?

Olympic days, should I run triples for a week, and doubles the next, etc? And go for the linear progression if all attempts are succesful?

Lastly, about conditioning, would 2 or so days of conditioning via hill sprints or circuit training be alright, I'm assuming if I can keep them toned down enough that it isn't interfering with my training it should be alright.

Thanks again, and apologies for the bombardment of questions.

[Einherjar]

What I did like about running 5/3/1 for those couple of cycles was, it allowed me plenty of recovery without having to think about it. It's not going to have a detrimental effect, and will probably serve as a good introduction.

I vary my sets and reps with assistance. I may do something like 3x12 for endurance / hypertrophy, 4x8 for hypertrophy / strength, and 5x5 for strength / hypertrophy. Or something like that. It does not have to be 5x5 or 3x12, 3x5 or 4x10 would be fine (or whatever, so long as the sets / reps structure is aimed towards my goal). Chins I may use ladders 2/3/5/7 one week (for volume), fat grip the next, weighted the week after. Some of this is autoregulated (so if it's hard day on the main lifts, I may skip assistance altogether), but it follows a rough cycle so that I'm progressing assistance too. I know that doesn't directly answer your question, but my answer to your question is sets / reps vary depending on what your outcome is (which I thought was less helpful).

My experience with Olympic programming is limited, so I'm probably not the best to offer advice. I loosely based what I did on what I read in Glenn's beginners program and Greg Everett's book (in terms of sets / reps). What ended up being effective was linear progression with triples. I tried working up to a max and then doing volume underneath, but the reps were inconsistent, and then volume was difficult to achieve after that. This (http://www.pendlay.com/The-Training-Weight_df_80.html) is worth reading; Glenn's view on, "The Training Weight", for beginners. To paraphrase, use whatever weight you can manage good form with and then add weight.

There's no reason why you can't do conditioning, Your body can only do so much, so provided that by doing hill sprint you are not asking it to do more than it can, you will have no problems. If you are worried that you might, drop the intensity down a little and build it back up as you adapt.

[The Jerk]

Thanks so much, again.

I really appreciate the replies, I think my template is pretty much good to go now.

As far as conditioning goes I should be alright with a few days a week considering I am decently conditioned to begin with, and I'm young enough to be able to recover fairly quickly.

Thanks for the article as well, I'll run the snatch and clean and jerk as being 10x3 each, simply adding weight each session granted all attempts (or at least, the vast majority of them) being successful and not too ugly.

I'm asking for Greg Everett's book for Christmas, so let's hope that Santa delivers on that.

Again, thank you very much, you've been a huge help in getting me started here. Now I at least have something to work with for a good while, and can make some changes as experience dictates.

[Judas]

..........

[Judas]

Okay... how did i not see this before?

The supertotal is and has been my primary focus for years. Started with raw powerlifting, started weightlifting, the body does NOT like weightlifting... so i'm doing both to stay sane and healthy. I've found that chasing two such diametrically opposed disciplines simultaneously is not impossible, and CAN be done well, but you need magic to make it work... and that magic is all in the split.

I will also say that in near every case, the weightlifter going into powerlifting will do a lot better than the powerlifter going into weightlifting. There are VERY few powerlifters that could knock off a true 'elite' (more on that below) supertotal, but i'd imagine most A-flight weightlifters at Worlds could nail one in short order with just a bit ov attention to bench. For MY examples, i will only concentrate on true raw powerlifting, to real lifting standards (read: no knee wraps and no mile-high squats).



Some math cause i'm bored:



What is a 'good' supertotal? My idea is this: (we'll use the 105kg class for example)

105kg National qualifier (WL): 260kg / 283 sinclair

105kg National qualifier (PL): 610kg / 365 wilks

105kg 'National level' supertotal: 870kg or 1918lbs.

Thats for Canada. The US should be higher in both sports, possibly in similar amounts? This is assuming qualifying to compete in Open/Senior Nationals is 'good'.

How about elite? Lets get truly freaky now...

105kg Intl. elite (WL): 397kg / 433 sinclair

105kg* RUM elite (PL): 827.5kg / 495 wilks

105kg true elite supertotal: 1224kg, or 2700lbs.


* there is no 105 class in RUM/Raw Unity, so average ov 100 and 110kg classes for this exercise. Raw Unity's elite is the highest true raw elite standard i have seen anywhere. There are other raw feds with their own 'elite' standards, but they can get pretty generous (read: low).


Sound impossible? Perepetchenov has done an almost raw PL comp (knee wraps), after "retiring" from weightlifting... think he went 700/465/700 at 220. Thats well over elite on any PL chart anywhere. Obviously he's not a bad weightlifter either.

Reza was rumored to be going into powerlifter back there for a while, and in that time he reported supposed powerlifting numbers around 880/500+(i forget)/860. Even if those were grossly exaggerated he'd be well over elite in PL. Everyone's favorite weightlifter personality - Koklaev has gone over 2200lbs raw too... The elite for SHW is in the 1900's. So definitely possible, and has been done... but again... it seems ONLY by weightlifters playing around with powerlifting.

So where do we stand now...???

[Judas]

My ideas on training for the supertotal?

I think most programs out there for it really leave the bench out to dry. This is understandable, as most weightlifters dont like to bench or suck at it, and even the majority ov competing powerlifters STILL dont bench as well as they should. So if people are using powerlifting programs as a resource for supertotal training they might be under-programming for bench, simply because most powerlifters really dont do much better. The biggest issue with training all 5 lifts is that to really be balanced, and by that i mean, bench well... the bench tends to need more work than everything else. Unfortunately, putting that work into the split really creates a bully that can easily overpower everything else going on. That, and programming PL style deadlift training also has a bullying effect. Luckily most weightlifters can pull. Now bench IS generally the most useless lift ov the five... and in PL at least, if you are going to neglect one ov three lifts, it should be the weak one... but having a big bench really does bring up the total nicely. Very few competitive powerlifters have that big bench. Now with a 5-lift total, the bench is no longer the weak lift... in most cases the snatch will be. I would venture that even the C&J will be weaker than bench for most people/lifters in general. Now the bench should be addressed more seriously... as especially in supertotal training, the bench will almost always be the neglected one. There is a lot ov ground to be gained in the 5-lift total if the bench is good. I am thinking competitively here though... as if the 5-lift was an actual sport.

That said, training bench seriously will really mess with the Olympic lifts. You will be doing more stretching than you think is necessary. And where you put it in the split is all-important. Same with deadlifts, if you choose to train them (you dont really have to). A big deadlift workout can ruin a full week ov weightlifting. I have found that doing proper Olympic front and back squats builds everything a good deadlifter needs. Throw in some Olympic style deads and it will all come together.

Here's a very basic split for a supertotal program:

Monday - bench, squat, RDL or SLDL, bench assistance (one heavy, one light)
Tuesday - snatch, front squats*, upper back (bench-specific - generally rowing style movements), arms
Wednesday - C&J, squats
Thursday - rest
Friday - bench, clean deadlift (alternate in PL style conventional every 3 DL days), front squats, bench assistance
Saturday - snatch, C&J, upper back and arms (if you have the energy), squats*
Sunday - rest (you should be stretching on rest days too)

* optional, which is also to say, if you do do them, go lighter.

Thats 3-5 squat days, Monday and Friday being the heaviest, 2 deadlift days, one heavy and one lighter, two bench days (both heavy or a heavy and light), and pretty much hitting everything else twice a week. Presses can be found in bench assistance, even done twice a week if you like them that much, though i'd suggest having at least one incline movement (bench or DB's) per week.

Not everyone will be able to handle this volume, but so far i've not found a person that cant if done properly. Volume/intensity can be adjusted up or down for different lifters, or demanding schedules. Also the emphasis can be shifted from one discipline to another as well. This split i think is pretty neutral. I generally do a lot more than this.


There should be competitions for this!