Video of Jon North 160 snatch at 94 bodyweight

[glennpendlay]

Here are two videos, second is the angle I like the best

http://calstrengthacademy.com/?page_id=1497

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hebJx-OA-Lo

He continues to improve... This was his third attempt at the Cal Strength Open. First two attempts were 152 and 156.

I would love to hear the other coaches on the board comment on his pull technique.

[NewWorldMan]

Good to see the continued improvement and the smile after the lift!

Was this at a meet?

[Derek Binford]

Jon is a beast! Might be my favorite lifter to watch lift. He's very explosive, he's intense, and you can tell he has fun.

[ruslev]

Of course I believe that this is a highly skilled lift. Important is first the path of the bar, which is visible by observing the landmarks in the background.

The athlete brings the bar towards him and lifts from the heel of the foot. As I have counseled previously, the ability to transition from the tension to the relaxation in the muscles is the mark of a superior lifter. This athlete has the tension very heavy then makes the re-bending of the knees to final pull to pulling under the load extremely fast. These phases of the lift occur very quickly which is the mark of high skill and ability. So he goes from the tension to the relaxation phase two times with speed. The skill of doing so is very high.

This of course is the object of the modern technique of weightlifting and is needed to take full advantage of the elastic qualities.

It is known that the elastic qualities are the separation of the high level athlete from the other athletes.

In response to the request of my good friend and colleague I must say that I do agree that this athlete has the better of the technique when compared to many of the Russian athletes. I can find nothing that is at fault, but of course he must grow his level of strength. As I understand from my colleague Mr. Jon North is working very hard to achieve this.

I congragulate my American colleagues in the development of this athlete.

It is known that Coach McCauley and Mr. Waxman have the disagreement over the development of lifters, so it is in many places, disagreements exist of course between different camps. There is always the fight between ideas.

But it is known that the technique of the Americans as shown by this video is very good and I congragulate Coach McCauley and Mr. Waxman on the development of this excellent athlete. It should be well known that the American system is improving and I should say, "my hat is off" to both of you.

[Stevemac]

Here are two videos, second is the angle I like the best

http://calstrengthacademy.com/?page_id=1497

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hebJx-OA-Lo

He continues to improve... This was his third attempt at the Cal Strength Open. First two attempts were 152 and 156.

I would love to hear the other coaches on the board comment on his pull technique.

There seems to be a lot of movement of his body during the initial pull (push) phase with little movement of the bar. Torso angle seems to change, hips up.
Power position appears to be good.

[elirosenberg]

The pull is one of his better developed points technically and impressive for his experience level.

In the catch, shoulder position not perfect and consequently the back may be flexing to some extent. This could end up being a limiting factor at some point.

Also, 160kg is a huge lift and speaks for itself !!! It looks like he spits on the platform and other nonsense which only serves to detract from the impression made by this lift.

Keep up the good work!

[Sean Waxman]

A side angle would give a bit more information.

Jon has good speed and kinestetic awareness.

Although there are examples of World-Class lifters who have a high hip position as the bar passes the knee, it is not ideal for most. Because of this high hip position as his 1st pull ends (the completion of the first extension of the legs), the bar is barley passed the knee, which is not ideal for most. This position forces his shoulders excessively over the bar, which can pose a problem as the weight on the bar increases (excessively stressing the lats and traps which increases the chance of excessive weight shift to the toes or heels if bar position cant be maintained.)

http://waxmansgym.com/images/stories/jn_1.jpg
Notice the bar position and back angle
relative to the floor at the end of the first pull

This high hip position also places the hip farther away from his center of gravity which elongates the second pull and forces excessive back extension. However, John seems to compensate for this with good back strength and hip speed to the bar.

The below back angle relative to the floor as the bar leaves the ground would seem ideal if it could be maintained. This position would bring the bar higher on the thigh upon the completion of the first pull and due to a more upright torso, his hips would be closer to the bar upon execution of the 2nd pull which would create a shorter stroke (which is ideal)

http://waxmansgym.com/images/stories/jn_3.jpg
This back angle would seem to
be ideal if it can be maintained


The questions are:
1. Is this Jon's ideal technique based on his anthropometrics/strengths and weaknesses?

2. Can he continue to progress with this technique?

2. Are his legs strong enough to maintain a lower hip position if that is what is desired?

What are your thoughts?

Sean Waxman

Waxman's Gym (http://www.waxmansgym.com)

[texaslifter]

Very informative post Sean!! It was very interesting to see you break down the lift this way, Thanks!!!

[Safko]

Great job Jon! You'll be at the record in no time.

[glennpendlay]

A side angle would give a bit more information.

Jon has good speed and kinestetic awareness.

Although there are examples of World-Class lifters who have a high hip position as the bar passes the knee, it is not ideal for most. Because of this high hip position as his 1st pull ends (the completion of the first extension of the legs), the bar is barley passed the knee, which is not ideal for most. This position forces his shoulders excessively over the bar, which can pose a problem as the weight on the bar increases (excessively stressing the lats and traps which increases the chance of excessive weight shift to the toes or heels if bar position cant be maintained.)

http://waxmansgym.com/images/stories/jn_1.jpg
Notice the bar position and back angle
relative to the floor at the end of the first pull

This high hip position also places the hip farther away from his center of gravity which elongates the second pull and forces excessive back extension. However, John seems to compensate for this with good back strength and hip speed to the bar.

The below back angle relative to the floor as the bar leaves the ground would seem ideal if it could be maintained. This position would bring the bar higher on the thigh upon the completion of the first pull and due to a more upright torso, his hips would be closer to the bar upon execution of the 2nd pull which would create a shorter stroke (which is ideal)

http://waxmansgym.com/images/stories/jn_3.jpg
This back angle would seem to
be ideal if it can be maintained


The questions are:
1. Is this Jon's ideal technique based on his anthropometrics/strengths and weaknesses?

2. Can he continue to progress with this technique?

2. Are his legs strong enough to maintain a lower hip position if that is what is desired?

What are your thoughts?

Sean Waxman

Waxman's Gym (http://www.waxmansgym.com)

1. Of course I am not positive, but given what I see in the gym, this is the position he seems to be strongest in. I think Jon is a little on the short torso/long thigh side of normal, plus he is a very strong puller relative to his leg strength, so it makes sense to me that he would tend to get into a more extreme position around the knee then many.

2.) He has certainly made quick progress this last year, and is not slowing down. 150 to 160kg on the snatch happened faster than 140 to 150 did. He can also snatch is also relatively high compared to his clean and jerk, and on the clean and jerk, he can rack more than he can stand up with or jerk.

These things tell me that the pull is not Jon's weakness, and will not be what stands in the way of progress anytime soon.

3.) At this point, I don't think so. When he tries to maintain a more "normal" position coming over the knee, there is considerable loss of bar speed. This doesn't mean that with continual training he might not even out his strengths and weaknesses and eventually have more of a normal pull.

[elirosenberg]

The high hip can be biomechanically efficient because it reduces resistance torque on the hip. Hypothetically, the double knee bend can occur faster since the flexors are antagonized to a lesser extent. There is a caveat which is that the bar needs to be moving fast and the trunk extensors must be strong enough to maintain that velocity during the period where force contribution from the leg extensors is minimal.

Somebody somewhere just made up the idea that the hip must not extend too much or the back must stay at a certain angle. There are many ways to slice the cake. Also, a lot of the impression of a high hip is related to how much the lifter pushes the knees out laterally during the initial pull.

[NickHorton]

The high hip can be biomechanically efficient because it reduces resistance torque on the hip. Hypothetically, the double knee bend can occur faster since the flexors are antagonized to a lesser extent. There is a caveat which is that the bar needs to be moving fast and the trunk extensors must be strong enough to maintain that velocity during the period where force contribution from the leg extensors is minimal.

Somebody somewhere just made up the idea that the hip must not extend too much or the back must stay at a certain angle. There are many ways to slice the cake. Also, a lot of the impression of a high hip is related to how much the lifter pushes the knees out laterally during the initial pull.

I think that for lifters with very long legs relative to their torso, then this position (high hip, torso way forward) of the 1st pull is something that is not only going to happen whether we like it or not, but is going to make them stronger. (I find it rare that lifters of this type have any trouble pulling the bar into the right place. They just may not be able to stand back up with it!!)

For lifters with more "traditional" weightlifter bodies (short limbs), it'll kill them. I think the idea of the maintained back angle comes from watching the top lifters of the world, the majority of whom have shorter legs and arms relative to their torsos.

I think there is a real place for a kind of "body typing" in coaching. There may be more than one type of "ideal" technique, and each person, depending on their body type may respond best to one of them, but not the others.

After all, we have 4 possible options for body types.

All relative to torso length:
1. Long legs + Long arms (Praying Mantis)
2. Long Legs + short arms (T-Rex)
3. Short legs + long arms (Donkey Kong)
4. Short legs + short arms (Hobbit)

1 and 4 are the farthest from one another. In some cases they are so different that it doesn't make sense to teach them the same way, IMO.

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

First off, Awesome lift by Jon. That was fantasticly quick and strong. Second, awesome coaching to get him to this stage. I am very impressed by Ruslev's commentary. Third, great analsysis by Sean.

My novice eye caught the same high hip position and got me to thinking. Was it optimal? Then I read this thread and it got me to thinking even more.

I too thought of Nick's bodytypes:
All relative to torso length:
1. Long legs + Long arms (Praying Mantis)
2. Long Legs + short arms (T-Rex)
3. Short legs + long arms (Donkey Kong)
4. Short legs + short arms (Hobbit)

I am so #3, it's not even funny. As is my 10 year old strong as an ox daughter who's finally showing interest.

In trying to understand what Glenn and others has written above, I'm guessing that Jon's high hip position comes as a result of having a stronger pull compared to stronger legs/squat - as evidenced by the photographs that Sean included. So to get the lower hip position going into the second pull, which would arguably be better (when looking at other top lifters), Jon would need to "grow into" or improve his leg strength? I ask this because I don't know if it would make him better in the long run, etc. But I imagine it will do wonders to continue to improve his leg strenght - whether or not he changes the way he pulls or not.

Now, I am curious what of the 4 categories Jon would fit into. He seems to have fairly long or at least normal length arms. Glen mentions a shorter torso and longer thigh.

I ask these questions because I've not completely understood the importance of the initial hip position and the hip position at the start of the second pull when you look at folks that fall into these 4 categories.

I've watched tons of videos and it seems to me that most elite lifters have average/shorter arms and legs and longer torsos. Kolecki is one of the few that i've seen that doesn't fall into that category. There are examples all over the place, but when you look at Ilyn, Kahi, Dimas, Suley, etc (even most of the elite super heavys), they fall into this category.

While it is true most will not make it to "elite" there are those among us who will wish to optimize what they have to work with. In doing it ourselves, or coaching it, when you get someone who is long limbed, what would be the best hip position for them at the first and second pull to get the most out of their body? Same question for someone with shorter arms, etc.

Just thinking out loud.

I know i tried a higher hip position recently and I could not do the double knee bend, or get my hips to the bar quickly, for some reason. But I've got more issues going on with my own technique than I care to phantom.

All the best,
Arden

[NickHorton]

Arden,

I didn't mean for the 4 categories of bodytypes to be taken TOO seriously. While I do believe that there will be variations in technique for each group, and in fact that we might be better off teaching those variations outright, the variations themselves won't be extreme.

To the untrained eye, they'll all look about the same.

But, for you, for instance - a Donkey Kong lifter (I'm like that, too) - pulling with bent arms on the clean tends to help out. I didn't say pull WITH the arms, btw.

If you can lock your arms at an bent angle and maintain that exact angle throughout your clean, then you have essentially taken away your short coming - long arms.

For long legged lifters, a deep bent over bow position is more likely, and more powerful.

I don't buy that with more leg strength, we could switch Jon over to a more upright style and see improvement. His femurs are too long. He'll always be stronger with a straighter legged pull than guys will who have short femurs.

His squat strength will be more important for his recovery and his jerk. I doubt pulling will ever be a big weakness.

As a general rule, I think lifters with short legs are the ones who have to work the hardest on the pull mechanics. Pulling is simply harder for short legged people. They have to work harder at hitting the right positions, or else their long torso becomes a liability.

Long legged people are like cable-pulley machines - they're born to pull. They have the perfect biomechanics for it. Simply bend over and stand back up and they create more force than another guy with little legs and a long torso can.

The bonus of short legs, though, is that once you DO pull it right, and you get it into place, you won't have much trouble squatting it up! While long legged guys often do. It's a give and take.

[jaredenderton]

Wow. This shows he is incredibly athletic. Really fast and powerful. I am really impressed with his improvement, he is getting after it. To break that american record that has stood for 10+ years would be pretty special. Hopefully he goes after it at the American Open. Really solid lift too (no fumbling around).

[glennpendlay]

Jared, based on your videos, and you and Johns relative strengths and weaknesses, I could see the following scenario...

Within the next 6 months John breaks the snatch record, you break the clean and jerk record, and you and Jon beat each other over the head every day in practice for another 6 months seeing who will be the first to break the total record...

We sure are looking forward to seeing you...

[jaredenderton]

Glenn, that certainly would be something. Just thinking about it gives me the goosebumps actually. That would be a great combination for sure! I have a lot longer to go (in all lifts/aspects) than Jon. But, I am ready to battle that's for sure!! :)

[Justice]

Just out of curiosity what are his MAX back squat and Front squat Pr's?
________
Maryjane (http://maryjanes.info/)

[Justice]

Just out of curiosity what are his MAX back squat and Front squat Pr's?

just bumping this to the top again to see what Jon's squat Pr's are?
________
Infants Avandia (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/avandia/)

[glennpendlay]

Front squat is about 200kg, back squat is around 210-220kgs, we dont do a lot of maxing the back squat.

[Justice]

Wow he is quite technically efficient. I can front squat 185kg and Bsquat 230kg but I can only do 125/150 @ 94kg. Any advice?
________
Uhwh Warehouse (http://uhwh.com/)

[glennpendlay]

without seeing you lift, hard to say. But I think its probably safe to say that an increased emphasis on practicing 90% and above lifts and less time with other things might be in order...